TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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GeoFee said:
Our Canadian governments have been racist from their inception. The story of Louis Riel offers an historic example. Voters of each generation have been complicit; the majority passively and a minority active.
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But when they try to be progressively less racist, the racist ones get all kinds of excuses made for them and they still get supported, and validated as a legitimate choice - and left wing progressives get scoffed at. Today the right is more actively racist than it has been in a long time. My experience with family is obviously not unique today...I don’t know why we have to pretend it is. You don’t hear the NDP holding views like my conservative family members do...and the far right is coming out of the woodwork - I am not unique in noticing it, and it’s coming from the conservative side... also, conservative parties have never made my experience as a citizen better, as someone low in their hierarchical view of the world...I reject that view for the future.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
It’s lived experience and ideology in both Northwind’s and my cases. Too quick to dismiss my negative experience with family members as some kind of anomaly, when it clearly isn’t. It’s lived experience.
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Please explain to me how me how my lived experience is ideology? I'm sure you know I'm not a conservative. I've been a pretty idealistic social democrat. Hanging out with conservatives has made me think about things differently. I'd like to think it has shown me there many ways to live and think.
 
Racism/ bigotry is the conservatives’ rotten apple. Holding ones nose and brushing white supremacy under the carpet while they vote, is what conservatives today are going to be doing. Voting for a racist leader (or enough MPs from that leader’s party to ensure the racist leader gets in) is a racist action. Your lived experience seems to have preferred to overlook that in coming to understand their way of thinking...or, correct me if I’m wrong.
 
I do not condone racism. I do not completely accept their way of thinking. This is not an all or nothing, black and white thing. What I am saying, yet again, that not all conservative values are bad ones.

Yes, you are wrong in your assessment of me.
 
Northwind said:
I do not condone racism. I do not completely accept their way of thinking. This is not an all or nothing, black and white thing. What I am saying, yet again, that not all conservative values are bad ones.

Yes, you are wrong in your assessment of me.
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I never said you did completely accept it. But conservatives who vote for racist leaders...when that is all there is...are racist by doing so.

What explicitly conservative values do you think are good?
 
You may be surprised - or not - that there is one conservative social value I support...monogamy, and close family (maybe because I lived the painful experience of what cheating and divorce can do to a kid in a volatile home) ... but I absolutely would never call myself a conservative or put that one conservative thing (2 things actually) I really value over and above stopping white supremacy...because nobody should have to explain why white supremacy is a deal breaker. Otherwise, i’m firmly on the left.
 
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Alright here they are.

The conservatives I know have the following values:

  • They are hard workers
  • They want to spend money wisely
  • They are generous
  • They help their neighbours
  • They value families
  • They want things done at a local level, rather than by the government
That's just a few. Satisfied?

Much of what you're arguing @Kimmio Laughterlove is the political machine, not individuals.

I know people who are highly disturbed by the racism in political leadership. They work to address that on a more grassroots level. I'm sure you're shocked by the idea that conservatives can believe in grassroots. In fact though, that was a significant part of the Reform party when it started. a lot of what you're complaining about is more about the authoritarian approach which can happen on either the left or the right.
 
Northwind said:
Alright here they are.

The conservatives I know have the following values:

  • They are hard workers
  • They want to spend money wisely
  • They are generous
  • They help their neighbours
  • They value families
  • They want things done at a local level, rather than by the government
That's just a few. Satisfied?

Much of what you're arguing @Kimmio Laughterlove is the political machine, not individuals.

I know people who are highly disturbed by the racism in political leadership. They work to address that on a more grassroots level. I'm sure you're shocked by the idea that conservatives can believe in grassroots. In fact though, that was a significant part of the Reform party when it started. a lot of what you're complaining about is more about the authoritarian approach which can happen on either the left or the right.
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5 out of 6 are not specific to conservatives. Only the last one. 3,4, and 5 have potential for preferencing traditional families and people most similar to them... which, the further you go to the right with that, can become ethnonationalistic.

Conservatives are more authoritarian on the whole, actually.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
5 out of 6 are not specific to conservatives. Only the last one. 3,4, and 5 have potential for preferencing traditional families and people most similar to them... which, the further you go with that can become ethnonationalistic.
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I described the people I know who consider themselves conservatives. You seem to want to demonize all conservatives. God forbid that any conservative be likeable or decent, right??

You have turned decent human traits (3,4,5) into potentially bad things. I mean, conservatives must be bad or suspect. Yes I do know people who oppose same sex marriage. At the same time, they will respect people who are in such a marriage. Whether you like it or not, people are not all going to think the same. They are also not going to come to your way of thinking just because you declare it right. Liberals do not hold the secret to human decency.

Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Conservatives are more authoritarian on the whole, actually.
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No, that is not always true.[/QUOTE]
 
Northwind said:
I described the people I know who consider themselves conservatives. You seem to want to demonize all conservatives. God forbid that any conservative be likeable or decent, right??

You have turned decent human traits (3,4,5) into potentially bad things. I mean, conservatives must be bad or suspect. Yes I do know people who oppose same sex marriage. At the same time, they will respect people who are in such a marriage. Whether you like it or not, people are not all going to think the same. They are also not going to come to your way of thinking just because you declare it right. Liberals do not hold the secret to human decency.



No, that is not always true.
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[/QUOTE]
Not always, but look at who they elect. Proof is in the pudding.

niskanencenter.org

GOP Authoritarianism: Are Trump Supporters Authoritarians? - Niskanen Center

Does Authoritarian Personality Theory explain Trump supporters and the surge in GOP authoritarianism, or is something deeper is at play?
niskanencenter.org niskanencenter.org

I’m not a liberal, I’m a progressive democratic socialist.
 
I know conservatives who wouldn’t like me if I was a black Muslim, but they like me just fine as I am. Am I supposed to feel fine about that? I guess, it’s easier to decide to feel fine about it because I’m not a black Muslim...I think that’s my point...is we shouldn’t feel fine about that. That’s not me being ignorant of other views. That’s me saying those views are not okay, and they shouldn’t be more tolerated just because they don’t directly apply to me.
 
One can discern two trajectories in current history:

one aiming toward hegemony, acting rationally within a lunatic doctrinal framework as it threatens survival;

the other dedicated to the belief that "another world is possible," in the words that animate the World Social Forum,

challenging the reigning ideological system and seeking to create constructive alternatives of thought, action, and institutions.

Which trajectory will dominate, no one can foretell.

The pattern is familiar throughout history; a crucial difference today is that the stakes are far higher.

Bertrand Russell once expressed some somber thoughts about world peace:
  • After ages during which the earth produced harmless trilobites and butterflies, evolution progressed to the point at which it has generated Neros, Genghis Khans, and Hitlers. This, however, I believe is a passing nightmare; in time the earth will become again incapable of supporting life, and peace will return.
No doubt the projection is accurate on some dimension beyond our realistic contemplation. What matters is whether we can awaken ourselves from the nightmare before it becomes all-consuming, and bring a measure of peace and justice and hope to the world that is, right now, within the reach of our opportunity and our will.

 
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