89 chapter project: Matthew

[chansen]

Blackbelt, you are very emthusiastic about Jews who convert to your beliefs still being allowed to be considered "Jews", as long as they are "Messianic Jews".

You are trying to say "Jewish" can be an "ethnicity". Absolutely, atheist Jews still consider themselves Jews, and their mothers still heap guilt on them, so they qualify by that alone. I have no issue with any of that.

My contention, is that people can identify, culturally, as Christians. Even if they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, or even real. They still consider themselves Christian.

The question remains, if a Jew can accept the Christian accounts and believe Jesus was the son of God, and still be a Jew, will you allow Christians who don't believe in Jesus, to self-identify as Christians and accept them as Christians?

That you are taking so long even trying to answer tells us what your answer is, but it would be better to get it from you directly.

Even when you pretend I don't exist, this stuff goes horribly for you.

 

[Luce NDs]

There are pockets that these folk drop into ... sort of like pool!

 

[revjohn]

if I am read this correctly, I have never heard a Pentecostal pastor and I have heard many over the yrs, ever preach on the issue of born again with the emphasis on the individual rather than God, I have always heard from the pulpit that it is God 100% of the time giving the spiritual rebirth.

When there is a greater emphasis on one's receiving grace then there is on the one givinggrace the emphasis has moved from God to the individual.

 

[revjohn]

Added quotes and question mark to your post to clarify what I think you're getting at. Let me know if I'm wrong.

The edit works very well thank you.

While this may have been the original reasoning for rejecting "Born Again" language, the obvious ongoing reason that the United Church and others won't dare list as a reason, is an unwillingness to be associated with "Born Again" people and organizations.

We won't shy away from listing it as a reason where applicable. Not everyone who uses "Born Again" language does so with a desire to cast other believers outside of the Christian faith.

Historically The United Church of Canada has been very suspect of charismatic expressions of faith simply because there is a greater emphasis on what one feels (as if feeling defines reality rather than responds to reality). The UCCAN as a branch of Reformed Christianity has always placed a greater emphasis on faith which embraces reason rather than faith which rejects reason.

Part of this is the instruction in 1 Corinthians 13 which sets all knowledge and ability within a context of love and it has been noted that charismatics have historically had difficulty with loving their neighbour preferring instead to love their ability to demonstrate the gifts of the Holy Spirit whether or not it actually served or hindered their witness to the wider world.

It should go without saying that while the UCCAN may not share similar failings that plague our sibling denominations we have more than enough faults of our own. We generally don't keep a list of who we will or will not associate with simply because in local contexts sibling congregations may play nicer than the denominations to which they belong.

Primarily because there are greater family connections between denominations on a local level than there are in the larger bodies of oversight.

 

[blackbelt1961]

When there is a greater emphasis on one's receiving grace then there is on the one givinggrace the emphasis has moved from God to the individual.

Which is what I always heard is

Thank you Jesus

 

[unsafe]

"If a Jew who believes Jesus *is* the Messiah is still a Jew, is a Christian who *doesn't* believe Jesus was the Messiah still a Christian?"

unsafe says -----this world may have a distinction as to what a Jew is called when they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour ---But God doesn't -----we are all one in the body of Christ -------

unsafe posted Scripture

Galatians 3:27-28 (AMP)
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union with the Christ, the Anointed] have clothed yourselves with Christ [that is, you have taken on His characteristics and values].

28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority].A)'>

Sons Through Faith in Christ

…27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew norGreek, slave nor free, male nor female,for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.…

unsafe posting ------Greek word used here for one -------heis: one
, Galatians 3:28 (ye that adhere to Christ make one person, just as the Lord himself); συνάγειν εἰς ἐν, to gather together into one,


unsafe says
The Old Jewish man has be put off and they become a new creation in Christ -------your now a Son or Daughter of Christ -----So this world can argue all they want to about if a "If a Jew who believes Jesus *is* the Messiah is still a Jew or not ---we are not important ---God is the important one and He sees a Son or Daughter NOT A Jew OR Greek ---bond or free --male or female -------

Race --Status or Sex --plays no part once one is Born Again ------



is a Christian who *doesn't* believe Jesus was the Messiah still a Christian?"

A Big Fat NO ------IN MY VIEW ------

 

[Jaebius]

"If a Jew who believes Jesus *is* the Messiah is still a Jew, is a Christian who *doesn't* believe Jesus was the Messiah still a Christian?"

unsafe says -----this world may have a distinction as to what a Jew is called when they receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour ---But God doesn't -----we are all one in the body of Christ -------

unsafe posted Scripture

Galatians 3:27-28 (AMP)
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union with the Christ, the Anointed] have clothed yourselves with Christ [that is, you have taken on His characteristics and values].

28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority].A)'>

Sons Through Faith in Christ

…27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew norGreek, slave nor free, male nor female,for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.…

unsafe posting ------Greek word used here for one -------heis: one
, Galatians 3:28 (ye that adhere to Christ make one person, just as the Lord himself); συνάγειν εἰς ἐν, to gather together into one,


unsafe says
The Old Jewish man has be put off and they become a new creation in Christ -------your now a Son or Daughter of Christ -----So this world can argue all they want to about if a "If a Jew who believes Jesus *is* the Messiah is still a Jew or not ---we are not important ---God is the important one and He sees a Son or Daughter NOT A Jew OR Greek ---bond or free --male or female -------

Race --Status or Sex --plays no part once one is Born Again ------



is a Christian who *doesn't* believe Jesus was the Messiah still a Christian?"

A Big Fat NO ------IN MY VIEW ------

In your view can a person who hasn't been baptized be a Christian? You shared Galatians 3:27.

 

[chansen]

is a Christian who *doesn't* believe Jesus was the Messiah still a Christian?"

A Big Fat NO ------IN MY VIEW -

It's refreshing to get an answer, even if it's expected. Wrong person, but I'll take it.

Because you're not blackbelt, what's your take on Jews for Jesus?

 

[blackbelt1961]

In your view can a person who hasn't been baptized be a Christian? You shared Galatians 3:27.

Can Messianic Jew be Saved even though he's a Jew

 

[Jaebius]

Can Messianic Jew be Saved even though he's a Jew

I believe that a Jew who believes in Messiah Jesus is a Christian.

 

[blackbelt1961]

I believe that a Jew who believes in Messiah Jesus is a Christian.

Was Jesus a Christian?

 

[Jaebius]

Was Jesus a Christian?

Jesus, I believe, had (and has) two natures. In his human nature, I hold that he was a Jew. Do you think that Jesus was a Christian?

 

[blackbelt1961]

Jesus, I believe, had (and has) two natures. In his human nature, I hold that he was a Jew. Do you think that Jesus was a Christian?

What about his followers , where they Christian? Or Jews

 

[Jaebius]

What about his followers , where they Christian? Or Jews

Please answer my question to you first: Do you think that Jesus was a Christian?

 

[blackbelt1961]

Please answer my question to you first: Do you think that Jesus was a Christian?

Of course Jesus was a Jew


What about his followers were they Jewish or Christian

 

[Jaebius]

Of course Jesus was a Jew


What about his followers were they Jewish or Christian

I believe that would depend on how you're defining "followers." People followed Jesus for various reasons.

 

[blackbelt1961]

I believe that would depend on how you're defining "followers." People followed Jesus for various reasons.

The apostles his closest group

I believe that would depend on how you're defining "followers." People followed Jesus for various reasons.

I'm talking about the disciples, were they Christian

 

[Jaebius]

The apostles his closest group

I'm talking about the disciples, were they Christian

I believe they were, with the exception of Judas Iscariot.

"Jesus saith to him, He that is washed, hath no need but that he wash the feet, but he is clean all; but not all. Forsooth he knew, who should betray him; therefore he said, Ye be not all clean." - John 13:10-11 (WYC).

 

[blackbelt1961]

I believe they were, with the exception of Judas Iscariot.

"Jesus saith to him, He that is washed, hath no need but that he wash the feet, but he is clean all; but not all. Forsooth he knew, who should betray him; therefore he said, Ye be not all clean." - John 13:10-11 (WYC).

And then they crucified him King of the Jews, Jewish leaders wanted that taken down but Pilate responded , what I have written I have written.

I am of the camp Messianic Jews, Jews for Jesus are very Jewish both in religion and culture, and Heritage.

Powers of the Jewish leaders 2000, is still alive and well today

 

[blackbelt1961]

Here is an interesting article

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