God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

[unsafe]

Here in the Garden God gives a Command to Adam and Eve ----you can eat from all the trees in the Garden but not this tree -----so did they made a personal choice to disobey --or did God predetermine them to disobey Him -----which is right ?????

If God predetermined them to disobey His command then Adam and Eve should not have been made Liable for their actions ----why would God give a Command and then be the one directing the disobedience -----that is just Bizarre in my View ----

 

[Waterfall]

Waterfall ---your quote ----Here's my challenge @unsafe or anyone......who's right?

who's right? ---unsafe says ------Now that is the Million Dollar Question ------?????

I don't think that anyone has a right answer -----cause if you read scripture --it seems it has both sides covered -----so how do you rationalize that is the question ?

I guess it comes down to "we choose" and if we choose wrong, does that condemn us as much as some would say not knowing Jesus condemns others? All because we didn't choose the right answer.

 

[Waterfall]

If God predetermined them to disobey His command then Adam and Eve should not have been made Liable for their actions ----why would God give a Command and then be the one directing the disobedience -----that is just Bizarre in my View ----

Of course then you have Romans 7 to deal with on that.

 

[unsafe]

.It is a hard subject to wrap the head around Waterfall -----

Certain Religions say we have no Free Will --while others say we do ----Who knows for sure ?-----The Bible seems to show we do have limited free will to make our decisions and reap the consequences of our decisions ---but then you have people who say that God chooses who will be saved and who won't be --God is in control not us ---and that we are born in Total Depravity


This is from -----Wikipedia
Total depravity - Wikipedia

Total depravity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a Christian [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology']theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.[/URL]

It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of some Lutheran synods,[1][2] and Calvinism.[3][4][5][6]Arminians, such as Methodists, believe and teach total depravity, but with distinct differences.[7][8] The key distinction between the total depravity embraced by Calvin and the total depravity taught by Arminius is the distinction between irresistible grace and prevenient grace.

unsafe says
So can we choose not to sin or are we forced to sin and we have no will to stop ourselves from acting out our thoughts to commit the sin ----everything starts with a thought ----we think about the act before our body moves to carry out the act -------

Bible says we are to tear down strongholds of the Mind -----

2 Corinthians 10 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
Tearing Down Strongholds
10 Now I, Paul, appeal myself to you by the meekness and gentleness of Messiah—I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when far away. 2 I beg of you that when I am present I won’t need to be bold with the courage I consider showing against some who judge us as walking in the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly but powerful through God for the tearing down of strongholds. We are tearing down false arguments 5 and every high-minded thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. We are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Messiah— 6 ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

unsafe says ----
If we have no freedom to do that ---how can we accomplish taking every thought captive to the obedience of God -----without having free will to do that -----????????

 

[Luce NDs]

"Certain Religions say we have no Free Will --while others say we do ----Who knows for sure ?-----"

Some say as spiritually emotion people we know little ... perhaps nothing ... and some sages say that love is like nothing ... and in god ... logos ... the logic conspiracy states that we may conceive from reason that the gods that know nothing are always struggling with something ... allowing for continuing counter affiliations!

Without devilish reason could an individual abstract that ? Thus there is the sense of something devoid or missing causing stares, leers and a' gapes ... especially when people found a place to put their thoughts ...

Isn't that the subtle pits ....? Always be cautious about places with voids ... you could get sucked in ... and thus the red fire in the aye of Minotaur ... little bull ... steerage by calves? Tis a wrap ... and cause for flat breads at the Seder ... and a person should be in Joy at still being able to consume ... physically, metaphysically, or even meta science in the etude of observations encountered !

 

[Luce NDs]

What's a sage? In some traditions these where called damned aesthetics ... adepts that should be denied and put down ... given the status of underhanded cognizance ... partisan wisdom as Sophia? This is bazaar too as hagadah ... poorly understood Hebrew tradition which may appear on a washed out stretch ... that stunned expression after a passionate spot of time ...

Some rest should follow ... ain't it a booty? Some say a hard soul to grasp ... when the ankh ells are thrashing in ecstasy ...

Some thought may be required prim ally to prepare ... for possible out comings ... from deep with in ...

So no one will be turned into an arid place --- Hagar the Horrible? Tis a variant in an old myth about how booty can turn ugly with time ...

Gotha be some virtue to wit ...

 

[unsafe]

So here is what we do know ----God is all these things -----

Is God omnipotent omniscient and Omnibenevolent?

What does Omnibenevolence mean?
omnibenevolent. Adjective. (not comparable) All-loving, or infinitely good, usually in reference to a deity or supernatural being, for example, 'God'. Its use is often with regards to the divine triad, whereby a deity is described to be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.


What is omniscience of God?
Omniscience. ... Omniscience /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/, mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know. In particular, dharmic religions (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) and the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) believe that there is a divine being who is omniscient.

What does omnipresent meaning?
the omnipresent God. ... Omnipresent emphasizes in a lofty or dignified way the power, usually divine, of being present everywhere at the same time, as though all-enveloping: Divine law is omnipresent.

unsafe says ----
So how we have a God that is ----all loving and good --- He knows everything that goes on in this world and in our personal lives we can't do anything that is hidden from Him and that includes our thoughts ---and He can be very where all at the same time -----

Does this actually mean--- that we as His Creation are directed solely by Him in our daily lives and in all the decisions we make and that includes accepting or rejecting Salvation which God sent His only Son to accomplish for us all ?

And ----if this is true -----Why did God create a Satan to be a god of this world and give him authority to have limited access into our lives ???

Can anyone who has had theological training shed some light on this without using their Religion Denominational beliefs to influence their response ----i.e. ---Protestant ---Catholic ----Baptist ----United --etc ---All Religions have different Beliefs but Religion is man made so we will be just giving our Denominations Religious views on a hard subject to understand using God's word only ------

And then where do Atheists stand in all of this with God's Sovereignty and free will in their personal life ----weather they like it or not they are under some spiritual control of their thoughts and freedom to choose to reject that there is a God at all -----is it God allowing them to think that He doesn't exist ???

God's Sovereignty is either limited by God Himself or it is in complete control of us -----it can't be both at the same time -----So which is it --is the real question??????

God is Sovereign that is true and the Bible backs this up ----but the question is how much He exercises His Sovereign authority over His Human Creation when it comes to personal decision making in our every day life and when it comes to His Gracious Gift of Salvation -----

Do we have a right to choose or are we predetermined by God what we will choose ?

 

[Jaebius]

Here in the Garden God gives a Command to Adam and Eve ----you can eat from all the trees in the Garden but not this tree -----so did they made a personal choice to disobey --or did God predetermine them to disobey Him -----which is right ?????

If God predetermined them to disobey His command then Adam and Eve should not have been made Liable for their actions ----why would God give a Command and then be the one directing the disobedience -----that is just Bizarre in my View ----

At the time they ate from the tree unsafe, their wills were not in bondage to sin. They were free to choose.

 

[Mendalla]

And then where do Atheists stand in all of this with God's Sovereignty and free will in their personal life ----weather they like it or not they are under some spiritual control of their thoughts and freedom to choose to reject that there is a God at all -----is it God allowing them to think that He doesn't exist ???

Atheists don't believe in God and therefore don't believe that a God controls their will or thoughts. That said, many of them do not believe in absolute free will, but that we are conditioned and shaped by genetics, natural and social environment, upbringing, etc. and that creates constraints on freedom of will. How much constraint is debated. Some hold that we have some freedom within bounds set by those constraints, some that we are ultimately totally constrained and that if someone could quantify every factor involved, one could predict a person's thoughts and life with a high degree of certainty. There is complexity, uncertainty and randomness naturally in the world so even this mechanistic view of being human couldn't predict with 100% accuracy any more than we can the weather or stock markets. Some would even argue that that very complexity is what leaves room for some degree of free will even in a mechanistic conception of the world.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla -----

Here is the thing ---in God's eyes there is not such thing as Atheist people --God created all humans ---they can say whatever they like ---they are either under Satan influence or God's ---Period -----if God is in completer control of all His creation then that includes people who don't believe in a God ---so that in itself proves we have some free will to choose our belief does it not -------

 

[Jaebius]

Mendalla -----

Here is the thing ---in God's eyes there is not such thing as Atheist people --God created all humans ---they can say whatever they like ---they are either under Satan influence or God's ---Period -----if God is in completer control of all His creation then that includes people who don't believe in a God ---so that in itself proves we have some free will to choose our belief does it not -------

It does not.

 

[unsafe]

Jae

Why would God give them a command to not eat of a certain tree and then make sure they ate of it ----If your one who believes God is in complete control of all things including our will to choose ---

 

[unsafe]

Jae ---you say not ---and give no explanation ----

 

[blackbelt1961]

Atheists don't believe in God and therefore don't believe that a God controls their will or thoughts. That said, many of them do not believe in absolute free will, but that we are conditioned and shaped by genetics, natural and social environment, upbringing, etc. and that creates constraints on freedom of will. How much constraint is debated. Some hold that we have some freedom within bounds set by those constraints, some that we are ultimately totally constrained and that if someone could quantify every factor involved, one could predict a person's thoughts and life with a high degree of certainty. There is complexity, uncertainty and randomness naturally in the world so even this mechanistic view of being human couldn't predict with 100% accuracy any more than we can the weather or stock markets. Some would even argue that that very complexity is what leaves room for some degree of free will even in a mechanistic conception of the world.

So you are a product of your environment and upbringing with no ability to gauge truth having said that you don't even know if your belief structure is actually truth since you have evolved on external structures and not truth

 

[Jaebius]

Jae

Why would God give them a command to not eat of a certain tree and then make sure they ate of it ----If your one who believes God is in complete control of all things including our will to choose ---

Unsafe - do you even read what I post before you respond to it? I posted my belief that they had free will prior to the Fall.

 

[Mendalla]

So you are a product of your environment and upbringing with no ability to gauge truth having said that you don't even know if your belief structure is actually truth since you have evolved on external structures and not truth

Hey, I'm just relaying here. Not necessarily my own belief system so I'm not going to defend it.

 

[Northwind]

Mendalla -----

Here is the thing ---in God's eyes there is not such thing as Atheist people --God created all humans ---they can say whatever they like ---they are either under Satan influence or God's ---Period -----if God is in completer control of all His creation then that includes people who don't believe in a God ---so that in itself proves we have some free will to choose our belief does it not -------

And in atheists' views, there is no god.

Saying that god is in control of everything and somehow decides when or if we have free-will sounds like brainwashing to me. Too many churches or faith groups (including other major world religions) have used god as a weapon to control the masses. Suggesting that there is a god that is in complete control is a control tactic in itself and has often been used to shame, control and influence. It is not proof of anything in my opinion.

 

[Mendalla]

Mendalla -----

Here is the thing ---in God's eyes there is not such thing as Atheist people --God created all humans ---they can say whatever they like ---they are either under Satan influence or God's ---Period -----if God is in completer control of all His creation then that includes people who don't believe in a God ---so that in itself proves we have some free will to choose our belief does it not -------

All of which is completely irrelevant to an atheist. As @Northwind says, they don't believe in God meaning God simply doesn't enter into how they think about things. No God = No God in control of anything. In their mind, the chief constraint on our ability to freely choose our belief is our upbringing and our environment. Someone who was raised in a closed religious community (say, one of the more isolated Old Order Mennonite or Amish communities) and never encountered the idea that there was no God would probably never even consider the possibility. It's still a possibility, but it is not available to them unless they engage with outsiders (a change in their environment).

 

[unsafe]

Northwind -------your quote -----And in atheists' views, there is no god.

unsafe says
This word Atheist is just a term made up by man ----it is man's own choice to believe that ---which shows the God allows man to believe that there is no God ---if God wanted to use His Sovereign will He could change the heart and mind of the Atheist in an instance and the person would have no say in what he wanted to believe ----- just like He could save all people all at once by His Sovereign will if He wanted to -----

This Thread is all about how God's Sovereignty works with our free will to decide what to believe -----So God allows people to believe that He doesn't exist -----the term atheist means nothing ----it is just a name that humans picked for themselves to be called ----

There are only 2 terms in our environment and upbringing ----negative --positive ----good ---evil ----light ---dark -----God ---Satan ------your either in one or the other in your environment and upbringing -----by who's choice --that is the question ------God allowing your choice ---or Satan influencing your choice -----

Now we can deny ---deny and deny that there is a God and a Satan but just because we want to deny it does in no way make it so -----which brings us back to God who is allowing this to be so -----giving us free choice to believe what we believe ------

 

[Northwind]

So God allows people to......

@unsafe I do not hold that view, so cannot discuss this according to your perspective. Your view is one interpretation of biblical texts.

This word Atheist is just a term made up by man ----it is man's own choice to believe that ---which shows the God allows man to believe that there is no God

Such archaic language. The word "Man" no longer (if it ever did) refers to all humanity.

which brings us back to God who is allowing this to be so

I'm glad you have comfort in this type of belief.