The Consequences of No Religion

[Waterfall]

A society with no religion is often heralded by the non believer. We've heard the arguments and how it will supposedly lead to a better and more humane society if the world would just let go of their belief in God.

What do you think? Are there consequences to "no religion" (non belief in God) for society or for individuals? Or would the world truly be a better place, IYO?

 

[Hermann]

Non-belief in God does not necessarily equate lack of religion. There are major religions, like Buddhism, who do not believe in a supernatural deity.

Moreover, to believe in science rather than mythology as the leading cosmology does not equate lack of spirituality. There are many spiritual and even mystical people among the science-inspired people of today who do not believe in God or conventional religion but are nevertheless socially and environmentally responsible. And even non-mystical or non-spiritual people can be socially and environmentally responsible.

Irresponsible and selfish people are irresponsible and selfish. They can be found among the religious and the non-religious alike. I think neither religion nor non-religion makes people more responsible. Responsibility does!

Conventional Christian religion has discredited itself by putting the belief in mythological cosmology ahead of scientific cosmology. Many modern Christians have turned away from that. But, in the mind of the secular public, Christianity is all about "believing in absurdities." This reputation is hard to shake, and may eventually lead to the downfall of religion, but other moral thought systems will surely arise to replace religion.


Nature is My Religion,
Earth is My Temple.

-Michail Gorbachev


Not bad for a godless communist, eh?

 

[chansen]

To me, it's one less dividing line between people. I mean, religion isn't the source of our morality, it's not the centre of our communities any more, and as a charity, it exists mostly to keep itself going. Where churches run shelters or food banks and similar ventures for the public good, secular groups are going to have to pick up the slack. That's on the non-religious to recognize the need and to act on it.

It's also one less group vying for political power. Religion wants power and protection. It wants to spread itself through education systems, and where it controls education systems it is very reluctant to give up that power. It wants its rules about sex and procreation and marriage to be part of civil law for all, not just its adherents. In general, yes, and not true of all religions and denominations, but those religious groups who want their laws to be the laws for all are very obvious.

And the right-wing Christian nutjobs today want to point to the rise of radical Islam and how destructive it is, but the same problem will befall the Canadian Muslim community in the coming generation, as young Muslims become young ex-Muslims. Their beliefs aren't any more believable than those of Christians. It'll happen to them, too.

And it's not like we can stop this train now. Canada is becoming a majority non-religious country at a very rapid pace. Whether we should become less religious isn't a debate worth having, because we just are. The best thing we can do is plan for it, because a lot of churches are going to close in the coming years. The religious have to figure out what to do, and plan for the downsize instead of wasting time, praying that numbers will increase.

What I'm worried about, is a backlash against religion in the coming years, as all the stands taken by religious groups come back to haunt them. As todays teens start coming of age and voting, it might be important to remind people that most religions were not trying to do bad things, and were just following their beliefs, as ill-considered as they were. I think we can slowly dismantle the pedestal Christianity has created for itself in Canada, and we should remove the special accommodations provided to religions over other groups, but we should not act punitively when religion is the minority. That we can not stand for. The only problem is that many religious groups see removal of religious privilege as a punitive act, when it's merely being fair to all.

 

[Mendalla]

It is not belief in God that causes religion to lend a kind of cohesion to society. It is the ritual structure. At least I would make that argument here.

One of the longest lasting stable societies in human history was Imperial China and, while they nominally hearkened back to ancient Chinese polytheism, the dominant religious/philosophical traditions were Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism, none of which encouraged or required belief in a God(s). Ritual practice was what mattered, not belief, and those rituals continued through almost all dynasties, even ones like the Yuan (Mongol) and Qing (Manchu) that were led by non-Han Chinese ethnic groups who did not necessarily share the same metaphysical beliefs as the Han. Even Maoist China and the modern capitalist oligarchy, both officially atheist, show influences of Confucianism in particular (Taoism and Buddhism are more focussed on individual life and conduct so don't play much of a role at the state level).

So, I would argue that a secular state with no central religious belief could exist and be stable. The values would be determined by whatever philosophical tradition underlay the founding and governance of that society.

The fact is that, regardless of what certain groups may think, the USA was founded on philosophical rather than religious principles and is a product of the Enlightenment, not Christianity even if Reformed Christianity was an influence on that Enlightenment thinking.

 

[Waterfall]

But, in the mind of the secular public, Christianity is all about "believing in absurdities." This reputation is hard to shake, and may eventually lead to the downfall of religion, but other moral thought systems will surely arise to replace religion.


Nature is My Religion,
Earth is My Temple.

-Michail Gorbachev


Not bad for a godless communist, eh?

What do you think is replacing "religion" for those who are leaving faith and God behind? Or is it necessarily a hole that needs to be filled with anything?

 

[Waterfall]

So, I would argue that a secular state with no central religious belief could exist and be stable. The values would be determined by whatever philosophical tradition underlay the founding and governance of that society.

The fact is that, regardless of what certain groups may think, the USA was founded on philosophical rather than religious principles and is a product of the Enlightenment, not Christianity even if Reformed Christianity was an influence on that Enlightenment thinking.

Do you think that spirituality and philosophy are similar? Different?

 

[Waterfall]

What I'm worried about, is a backlash against religion in the coming years, as all the stands taken by religious groups come back to haunt them. As todays teens start coming of age and voting, it might be important to remind people that most religions were not trying to do bad things, and were just following their beliefs, as ill-considered as they were. I think we can slowly dismantle the pedestal Christianity has created for itself in Canada, and we should remove the special accommodations provided to religions over other groups, but we should not act punitively when religion is the minority. That we can not stand for. The only problem is that many religious groups see removal of religious privilege as a punitive action, when it's merely being fair to all.

Well thought out response. I think some religions are compelled to spread the word which is counter productive to not do otherwise. How should atheism deal with that?

 

[Mendalla]

Do you think that spirituality and philosophy are similar? Different?

Spirituality and philosophy are certainly, though one can inform the other. Philosophy is more about how we define and understand the world around us using logic, semantics, and other techniques to try to ferret out that understanding. Science kind of does the same thing using empirical methods but only deals with physical existence while philosophy delves into meaning and morality. Spirituality, for me, gets more into going beyond that to how we feel about that world and connect with it. It is a more emotional thing while philosophy is more rational/intellectual.

 

[unsafe]

We can say there are 2 types of Religion -----True Religion and False Religion ----- both are Man Made and Man Run in my view ------Is there one True Religion that is the question ? we humans have developed our own many Religions and have made up our own beliefs ---to those who have done this if you ask them they would probably say theirs is the one True Religion ----So Religion can be whatever one we want it to be ----If a person follows say Islam than for that person it will be the one true Religion--all other Religions will be False in their eyes ----Who is right and who is wrong --we can debate it but we will never solve it --- that is one Truth that all of us will know in the end when we pass from this life to another ----then and only then will we know The Truth about all the Religions of this world and whose Religion is the One and Only True Religion -----

Would we be better off without Religion ?-----I personally believe yes ----All should be Followers of the Way in my view ----the way to what ---the way to an eternal life and the way to live a personal life here on this earth in peace --health ---joy and happiness full of blessings in all areas of our personal life while serving and passing on Blessings to others ----We can get this from reading and putting into practice words that we read from a Book --- The Bible ---and so for me the Bible is my source --- Religion doesn't give me Salvation ---Jesus Christ who died and shed His Blood gives Salvation ----so Religion means nothing ---it is the Precious Blood that was Shed that means something to me in my belief system ----Christianity is suppose to be a Religion that follows Christ's example and word ----how many do just that ???---

Jesus said this ----

John 14:6GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

6 Jesus answered him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

Religion can't get you to the Father ----Reading His Word ---trusting what it says and putting it into practice can ---

Thanks be to God for caring enough for providing a way for us to be able to reconnect with Him ----Through His Son ----


These are just my thoughts on this ----

 

[airclean33]

Hi Chansen -- I don't want to come down on you to hard. So I am not going to throw Bible verse at you , that you don't believe anyway. Besides I kind of like some of those made up Ideas.But I was just wondering have you checked stats on the atheist of lite? 2.3% of World population. You don't even do well against those who don't have any religion--11.9%

 

[chansen]

Hi Airclean.

There's these things called "trends".

 

[chansen]

Also, I think the post is titled incorrectly. There will never be "no religion". There will always be people who need answers more than they need correct ones. There will always be people who value the feeling that religious faith gives them, and like Mandella says, the ritual of it all.

What will happen, is that when the religious become the minority, they will no longer be catered to in the same way. Religious leaders will have less of a voice. Religion will become something that is very personal, as it probably always should have been, and nobody will have to self-declare as an "atheist", because what the hell is the point of telling people what you're not? If we did that for everything, describing ourselves could take an awful long time.

Person 1: "What do you do for a living?"

Person 2: "Well, I'm not a fisherman, or a lumberjack. I don't work with masonry or drywall. I'm not an accountant or a tennis pro..."

Person 1: "Forget I asked."

 

[BetteTheRed]

Here's one way that religion can morph to be a force for good:

i) Assume that it's reasonable to define Godde in a panentheistic fashion, i.e. "Godde" is just the universe and beyond, everything that does and doesn't exist, from hornets to black holes. Then in order to "love Godde", one is obligated to love this beautiful little green and blue pearl in the infinite necklace of the universe.
ii) Assuming above, worship becomes worship of the Earth and all that makes her healthy, that sustains and feeds her. Eco spirituality becomes the essential dogma.

A lot of us seem to have the God-gene switched on, so may as well be used as a force for good. Imagine if Christians were as militant about ecology as many of them currently seem to be about sexuality. "Save the Planet" instead of "Count the Penises in the Bed".

 

[chansen]

LMAO @ "Count the penises in the bed."

That is SO not going to be in the kindergarten curriculum any time soon.

The problem with using the language of Christianity while trying to distance yourself from the bible, is that it is always there, lurking in the background. There will always be literalists around, quick to exclaim, "But the bible says...!"

And then you're back to square one.

We're better off abandoning the words, except as expletives, which is how "Jesus" and "God" comes out 90% of the time I use those words.

In all seriousness, Christianity can be secure in the knowledge that the holidays they stole from the pagans will be referred to by their Christian names for a very long time. And there will always be the biblical metaphors and the language of King James echoing on in literature. But the beliefs themselves are going to fade, and have been fading for some time, with no slowdown in sight.

And I'm sorry, but churches are going to have to plan for the loss of members. I keep pointing out that your best avenue for growth is the over-churched, but nobody at the UCCan would ever listen to an atheist on this, and I don't expect the UCCan will ever do anything new or novel to reach out to the overchurched, most likely out of fear of offending the churches who already look down on you. Such is the meekness of the UCCan.

 

[KayTheCurler]

You so often say things that sound so right to me, Chansen. I find myself thinking of the many people I have had conversations with who returned to church after a period of abstinence having found a different way of viewing the teachings. None of them stayed as the congregation hadn't matured in their views and were still stuck in the 'the Bible says clearly......' mode. Also, of course they were spending their time raising money to keep the building open, which wasn't what the returnees were looking for as a spirit based outlet. Nowadays one doesn't have to belong to a church to do satisfying worthwhile things to assist others.

 

[Hermann]

What do you think is replacing "religion" for those who are leaving faith and God behind? Or is it necessarily a hole that needs to be filled with anything?

I think there is an innate yearning for ultimate Truth. And, when religion is abandoned as the quest for Truth, or when religion can no longer fulfill the yearning for Truth, then Truth is sought in other ways and on other paths.

Science cannot fulfill this yearning, but science-based philosophy, with its tremendous mind-boggling insights, can be of help. In my opinion, ultimate Truth is beyond the capacity of the rational intellect. IT can be intuited, or felt in the pure experience of reality, but IT cannot be expressed in logical terms or concepts because it is beyond logical comprehension. To me, the pure experience of reality, in which we experience reality as it really is rather than we think it is, is the experience of ultimate Truth. I call IT "spiritual experience," and the thoughts and actions arising from it "spiritual thoughts" and spiritual actions."

This has become my "religion." It filled the hole that was left behind when I abandoned conventional Christian religion and the belief in a supernatural God in my early adulthood. Although it probably is closer to Zen Buddhism than Christianity, I can fit it in with the beliefs of United Church of Canada, to which I now belong, but many of my fellow churchgoers are somewhat suspicious of my "religion."

 

[Mendalla]

What do you think is replacing "religion" for those who are leaving faith and God behind? Or is it necessarily a hole that needs to be filled with anything?

The need for ritual expression can be filled with secular rituals like meditation or setting aside time for walks in nature.

The need to work for justice in world can be expressed through secular volunteer work (e.g. Amnesty International, Food Banks, social justice organizations, and so on) as easily as through religious work.

The need for some underlying purpose or meaning can be filled by philosophy (Epicureanism and Stoicism, for example, both dwelt on this).

The need to believe in some fundamental force of life and existence (which I am not convinced all people have) can be filled by pantheist beliefs in the "divinity" of the world and the forces of creation.

That is how it has worked for me, at least. YMMV. I'm wavering on the last one a bit, and leaning more towards secular philosophy at the moment.

 

[Hermann]

I agree with Mendalla on all points. Of the divinity or sacredness of the world I am, perhaps, a bit more certain than he. Maybe this is because I feel it so strongly.

But this could be a mere a matter of semantics. Carl Sagan called the universe, or his experience of it, "numinous," which is pretty much the same as "sacred," "holy," or "divine," with perhaps less religious connotation.

 

[Neo]

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
- The Dalai Lama

It should all be about awareness, love and service to our fellow human beings. Theologies and religion get in our way because they create separation, "us" (the saved) verses "them" (the heathen). There is a reason why Christ told us to love our enemies, we are one humanity: all of us.

 

[Hermann]

You so often say things that sound so right to me, Chansen. I find myself thinking of the many people I have had conversations with who returned to church after a period of abstinence having found a different way of viewing the teachings. None of them stayed as the congregation hadn't matured in their views and were still stuck in the 'the Bible says clearly......' mode. Also, of course they were spending their time raising money to keep the building open, which wasn't what the returnees were looking for as a spirit based outlet. Nowadays one doesn't have to belong to a church to do satisfying worthwhile things to assist others.

Hello Kay:

Despite my unorthodox beliefs, I felt very much at home and accepted in my previous UCC congregation, but less so in my present and much larger congregation, and actually haven't been to church for over a year. I agree, one doesn't have to belong to a church to do worthwhile things.