Jesus?
TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree with you on this. I would note that Jesus never said that Pilate was "chosen" to be prefect of Judea. Pilate's "power" - in general terms - came from God (as Paul says, the state has God-given responsibilities) but whether a particular leader uses the power wisely or in a way that pleases God is a very different question, and - again - I'm not aware of Jesus declaring Pilate "chosen" by God. In fact, as far as I know the only national leaders who have ever been "chosen" by God were Saul and David over Israel (and, one could argue therefore, David's descendants as the kings of Israel and Judah until the exile.) But I see nothing to suggest that God specifically "chose" Herod, or David ben Gurion or Benjamin Netanyahu. The idea that God would "choose" the president of the United States (whomever that may happen to be at any given time) is really little more than a nod to the idea that the United States has some great part to play in God's unfolding plan. Maybe it does - or maybe not. Lots of empires have risen and fallen since Jesus. The United States may just be another one of them. Really, though, the idea that it has such a role is tied to the political concept of American exceptionalism more than it is to any obvious biblical revelation.
As for God using Pharaoh - again, I have no argument there. God will use whom God chooses to use, and unfortunately God has to choose from among we imperfect human beings. But that God chooses to use someone who has risen to a position of leadership doesn't mean that God chose that person for that position of leadership. I am aware of nothing in the biblical narrative that suggests God "chose" Pharaoh (any of the pharaohs mentioned in Genesis or Exodus) to be Pharaoh. God simply worked through the one who had managed to rise to that position.
What you said was very specific and very definite. You said that God "chose" - actually "chose" - Donald Trump. I'm curious as to the basis for that statement.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
I think its simple, Gods ways are not mans ways, God looks to the heart, the very being of a person
Where's the love (joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control) in the world today?
revsdd
Well-Known Member
You assume that it isn't "same ol same ol." Aside from style - what in substance has really changed with Trump? The typical Republican agenda (pro gun, pro tax cut, anti-abortion) is being pushed. As always, Congress is deadlocked and unable to do much of anything. Not much of substance has changed. The only difference is there's an imbecile in the White House.
blackbelt1961 said:
A certain segment of the evangelical Christian community in the United States certainly disagrees with me. But as to Trump being "chosen" I see no evidence or biblical justification for the idea that God "chooses" leaders over modern nation-states. I've addressed that question more thoroughly in my response to PG. Those who disagree with me and believe Trump was "chosen" by God would have to go a long way to convince me that their position is in accordance with any revelation of Scripture or with any of the moral/ethical standards God displayed through the life of Jesus. I'm open to being convinced that I'm wrong. But no one has convinced me yet. All I really see are conservative evangelical (really fundamentalist) and mostly American Christians who just make the assumption that God works through the United States, and they assume as long as "their guy" is in office that God is working through him. Barack Obama on the other hand couldn't have been chosen by God because ... because ... because ... well ... just because! Because we didn't like him! That's it! And God only chooses who we like!
That's an easy-out excuse without explaining anything. And it also indicates that you must know what God's ways are and whoever you're talking to doesn't.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Jobs, stock market , Give him time , the dems had 20 yrs!!!!!!
actually, I never ever said he was "chosen" , Im aware, that there are Christians who clam he is 'chosen" and also there are Christians who clam the opposite , it will be interesting to see how history will judge him and which side of the christian community was right .
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
why , because you say it is ?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
So He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is prized among men is detestable before God.
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
And they prayed, "Lord, You know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two You have chosen
wolf in sheep's clothing
shiny coffins but rotten inside
all about the heart
George W. Bush was president for 8/16 yrs. I thought my math was bad.
Also, nothing says God inspired like the stock market.
Also, nothing says God inspired like the stock market.
But you are so sure the wolves in sheeps clothing are the Obamas and Clintons.
Meanwhile, Trump, with his cheesy opulence and his branding, his private jet, private helicopter, golf courses - prized among men!!!- and his fast talking and obfuscating and blatant lying...he doesn't even look or act like a wolf in sheeps clothing. Just a wolf. And he admits as much. And he's blowing the whole house down. And you guys are cheering him on. I...don't...get it.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
You realize that the job situation has been improving and the stock market has been rising ever since the big crash of 2008. That's simply continued under Trump - essentially because nothing of substance has changed. He takes credit for it (as would I in his position) but to do that he has to ignore the years long trend and pretend that it only started happening when he was elected - which is simply not true.
By way of edit - I just checked the facts. The stock market recovery from the recession started with the George W. Bush stimulus package in October of 2008. The package was used almost immediately to buy stocks in banks (not the auto industry, which most people remember) to stabilize that industry in the US. Recovery continued under Obama, and the stock market hit record highs under Obama in May of 2013. Its increases since then have simply been new records.
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
By the way, as to the Democrats having had 20 years - what?
In spite of a claim started by Ann Coulter that Republicans hadn't controlled the presidency, the House and the Senate at the same time since 1928, in fact from 2003-2007 the Republicans controlled all three (during the presidency of George W. Bush.) Basically, the Democrats dominated Congress from the end of World War II until the Reagan era. Since then, control of Congress and the presidency has tended to go back and forth.
In spite of a claim started by Ann Coulter that Republicans hadn't controlled the presidency, the House and the Senate at the same time since 1928, in fact from 2003-2007 the Republicans controlled all three (during the presidency of George W. Bush.) Basically, the Democrats dominated Congress from the end of World War II until the Reagan era. Since then, control of Congress and the presidency has tended to go back and forth.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
hmmm, no I never said that , where did you come up with that?
So God used Idi Amin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and is using Trump too? Is he also using Kim Jong-un? because he sees something in their hearts that we don't see? If I go by the fruits they produce, which God asks us to do, I would say not.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Revsteve I get it you dont like Trump , I happen to think in time he will do fine
we'll see
What do you base that opinion on?
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
I have Faith that God uses who He wishes to use, good and evil men for His final purposes
And does God not give us guidelines as to who we should admire and follow?
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
I admire one and follow one, His name is Jesus, the rest are mere men that I have opinions on
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
What if it's as it appears, and a**holes with banks full of cash and teams of lawyers sometimes win? What God would normalize bigotry through the president of the United States? What God would choose an arrogant yet emotionally fragile man to be a world leader? And if God chooses leaders, now you have to explain all the world's leaders and the state this planet is in.
Nothing here adds up, unless your God is a complete dick. As we've seen before, that is the God you worship, and the sort of God who would create a drama with Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump, just for his own amusement, and our potential peril. Your God, then, is the worst of the lot. If He is the puppet master who is pulling the strings, this only supports my hypothesis that your God an evil, self-centred jerk.