Confirmation Versus Adult Baptism

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crazyheart said:
I thought confirmation was renamed "re-affirmation of baptisimal vows"? anyone?
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Nope. I do understand the confusion.

Baptism (making of vows) in the case of infant baptism vows are made on behalf of the infant being baptized.

Confirmation (affirmation of baptismal vows) where indiviudals, baptized in infancy affirm that they are willing to personally participate in the vows undertaken on their behalf.

Reaffirmation of baptismal vows is where baptized individuals remember their baptism liturgically. There is no requirement for this in most Christian tradition. It has been a liturgical memory building piece in different Christian traditions for years.

The United Church of Canada being a low liturgy tradition has embraced this historical liturgical practice to accommodate those who need more religious "feeling."
 
BetteTheRed said:
How are these things different - an adult baptism and a 'confirmation' of one's infant baptism?
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They are as different as an infant baptism and a confirmation of one's infant baptism.

One is the actual baptism the other liturgical time-travel allowing the individual to be present at their own baptism without actual application of water.

The end result is that both the individual baptized as an adult and the individual confirming that they have been baptized are consciously agreeing to be active participants in the Baptismal Covenant.

The degree to which they successfully keep the vows they make will be roughly they same. Both will fail to perfectly honour the vows they have undertaken. Only God will, and is able, to honour the divine aspect of the covenant.
 
Lo baptism in arid steps leads to a too grit directive (true, or virtue of grit) and thus those free in underground understanding as intellect is not received well in superficial alchemii ...

Thus behind the scenes to the remnant ... those left in the dust to learn from the bits remaining ... tis a dirty Job avoided by elitism or the alternate kind as they believe themselves right into it ... but not! One has to dig it ... or miss the arche O logic! Snuggles up to hidden archetypes ...

A rare bunch of psyche type can see it ... as the sol is nothing and thus transparent ... easily transcended without catching a Vu ...
 
Hi,
Mystic said:
Sigh! Back to sprinkling vs. dunking.
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As you wish.

"Brevity is the heart of clarity"

Shortly following my birth I was baptized by sprinkling. This in a small Friesian village. Two years later our family got on a boat sailing to Canada. We settled in Manitoba.

Until the age of twelve I lived and learned in the context of Dutch Calvinism. This provided a solid foundation in knowledge of the scriptures. Being gifted with a keen imagination and a budding critical consciousness I discerned a disconnect between what the community professed and what it practiced. This gave rise to questions related to the meaning and purpose of my being in the world.

At seventeen I was expelled from school. This opened me to a journey of transformation. This journey was concluded in the early days of my thirtieth year. I was alone in the Rocky Mountains and had been without food for several days. Under a starlit sky and a full moon I heard the word of God. Not the sound of words. Rather, it was the sound of light. The word was clear: "You cannot know my will." This marked the death of old Adam and the birth of new Adam in me.

Coming out of the mountains I returned to Winnipeg. In short order I was baptized by full immersion. A symbolic action signifying my death to the way of the world and resurrection to the way of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth by the Holy Spirit. This marked the beginning of my sanctification under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

At the age of sixty I returned to the village of my birth. I visited the church where I had been baptized. With hands on the font used for that baptism, I expressed gratitude for the covenant faithfulness of God. Then I visited the grave of my paternal grandfather, after whom I had been named. Standing by the grave I accepted the pending death of my material being. I walked away from the grave determined, by the grace of God, to live the remainder of my earthly days rooted in the abiding reality of my spiritual being, in the world but not of the world.

Today I am aware that I have one more baptism to experience. That being the actual death of my body and the liberation of my spirit. I approach that day confidently and without fear. My prayer is for a quiet passing in the company of family and friends. This said, I will gladly yield to the determination of God in the appointed day. As it is written: "Not my will but your will be done."

George





 
The Dunne kin mystery ... Wy RD mystery?

Some cannot accept uncertainty of what god is to ask the prodigal ... especially if prodigal is not well understood as a deep thingy ...

Chords of Damn PAX? The plug is in ... like that Dutch young coupling ... sharing of what's Guild ... stuff to Polish ...
 
I've been debating how to weigh into this thread. I was paedobaptised and then confirmed at 13 or 14 per usual UCCan practice (at least in the 1970s). Grandad baptised me and, with the minister's consent, joined in my confirmation, too. While I think me being confirmed was a given and there would have been a ruckus if I'd said "No", there wasn't really much risk of me not doing it. I was a reasonably faithful, if liberal, Christian at the time like the rest of my family. Perhaps more focussed on Jesus as the bringer of God's love to the world than on sin and salvation, but that was pretty much the mainstream approach in that church so not likely to cause a fuss.

But the question for me now, looking back over 40-ish years later, is whether it all really meant anything in the end. I'm no longer UCCan. I'm no longer even a Christian by my own estimation. And I could never have predicted my future spiritual course at 14. Perhaps, had confirmation happened in my late teens or twenties instead of my early teens, I might have been more hesitant about going ahead. Certainly values learned in that world inform me to this day, but I no longer subscribe to the theology that underlay them and, really, that's what the confirmation vows were about IIRC.

Which I guess brings it all back to whether paedobaptism+confirmation is really for the kids, or is more for the parents/congregation. Does it really confer anything lasting? Perhaps a single event, an "adult baptism" or "adult confirmation" at 18 (or thereabouts) for those who desired to make that commitment would be more meaningful and lasting. You could still have a child dedication/naming as we UUs do (or even a paedobaptism), but leave the meat and potatoes of vows and faith to an age when those involved might actually be somewhat settled in their faith. Because I wasn't at 14 even if I thought I was.

Just some thoughts from someone who's been there and done that and has gone in other directions since.
 
Mendalla said:
I've been debating how to weigh into this thread. I was paedobaptised and then confirmed at 13 or 14 per usual UCCan practice (at least in the 1970s). Grandad baptised me and, with the minister's consent, joined in my confirmation, too. While I think me being confirmed was a given and there would have been a ruckus if I'd said "No", there wasn't really much risk of me not doing it. I was a reasonably faithful, if liberal, Christian at the time like the rest of my family. Perhaps more focussed on Jesus as the bringer of God's love to the world than on sin and salvation, but that was pretty much the mainstream approach in that church so not likely to cause a fuss.

But the question for me now, looking back over 40-ish years later, is whether it all really meant anything in the end. I'm no longer UCCan. I'm no longer even a Christian by my own estimation. And I could never have predicted my future spiritual course at 14. Perhaps, had confirmation happened in my late teens or twenties instead of my early teens, I might have been more hesitant about going ahead. Certainly values learned in that world inform me to this day, but I no longer subscribe to the theology that underlay them and, really, that's what the confirmation vows were about IIRC.

Which I guess brings it all back to whether paedobaptism+confirmation is really for the kids, or is more for the parents/congregation. Does it really confer anything lasting? Perhaps a single event, an "adult baptism" or "adult confirmation" at 18 (or thereabouts) for those who desired to make that commitment would be more meaningful and lasting. You could still have a child dedication/naming as we UUs do (or even a paedobaptism), but leave the meat and potatoes of vows and faith to an age when those involved might actually be somewhat settled in their faith. Because I wasn't at 14 even if I thought I was.

Just some thoughts from someone who's been there and done that and has gone in other directions since.
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Tis a High Brow concept of at 13 one gets immersed in the problems of adulthood directed by hormones ...

Tis disastrous at least ... and then some learn to handle a la Main ...

Some ancient guidance is of value ... but some resist the old fart due to the mire essence ...

I can't say more than that for authorization is denied as I'm not forensically certified ... only in common form ...
 
Baptism in Paul's churches was associated with a life-changing experience of divine power because it is associated with an initial encounter with the Holy Spirit, not with a bloodless affirmation of basic Christian doctrine. As a pastor, I sometimes seemed to be successful in creating a prayerful atmosphere in which the baptizand really did have a very sacred baptismal experience to be remembered and cherished. How meaningful the experience turns out to be depends on how well the pastor creates an expectation of ab encounter with the Spirit. Noting indicts the impoverished spirituality of an institutional church more gravely than unwittingly establishing baptism as in effect an exit strategy for teenagers from the church!
 
Does anyone here really believe that with your attitude, you have *any* form of successful history with retaining teenagers?

Again, consider how you've bounced around small churches. When I looked you up back when you were being an absolute dick on the original WC, I found nothing from any group on teens about how great you are. There are energizing pastors out there. You generated zero discussion. Pastors who are successful with teens are in demand and are invited to speak at other churches. You hit the online forum lecture circuit, where you weren't invited.*

If I'm wrong, bring members of your previous congregations here. They should love to listen to you again. It'll be like old times.


* Except, you claim, by some leader in the UCCan, who asked you to come to WC.ca. Who has never been named and remains one of your unsubstantiated claims.
 
chansen said:
Does anyone here really believe that with your attitude, you have *any* form of successful history with retaining teenagers?

Again, consider how you've bounced around small churches. When I looked you up back when you were being an absolute dick on the original WC, I found nothing from any group on teens about how great you are. There are energizing pastors out there. You generated zero discussion. Pastors who are successful with teens are in demand and are invited to speak at other churches. You hit the online forum lecture circuit, where you weren't invited.*

If I'm wrong, bring members of your previous congregations here. They should love to listen to you again. It'll be like old times.


* Except, you claim, by some leader in the UCCan, who asked you to come to WC.ca. Who has never been named and remains one of your unsubstantiated claims.
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Personally, I don't mind reading mystics posts. Some have been very interesting.
 
Waterfall said:
Personally, I don't mind reading mystics posts. Some have been very interesting.
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I like foggy attitudes ... gives me more to ponder, than that from the fixated ... people just out to convert without adequate rational ... even angle cists as hard node You'll see ... when time is drawn together as past, present in future ... collaborated ...

So in dippy lo matic ... for those unable to gather their emotions with some thought included ...
 
Chansen,

No, my work with youth has never made the papers. Nor do I care about what posters of your ilk think of me. In fact, I intend to soon take another long leave of absence from this site after tying up some loose ends on threads that interest me. I have always delegated youth ministry to lay leaders, but I treasure the many productive relationships I have had with individual youths, especially those who have been victims of abuse or deprivation. I especially treasure my tutoring mentoring relationships with young people and have continued such relationships even in my retirement. For example, one young man flunked out of high school. When he later found himself on the verge of flunking out of college, he asked for tutorial help. I equipped him with a power vocabulary and then pulled some strings to help him gain admission with scholarship to Princeton Seminary. He won the thousand dollar senior thesis prize, got his PhD in New Testament, and became a theology professor.

As an ex-professor, my most satisfying ministry has been to intellectually curious adults. For example, a few years ago, I was asked to lead an adult Bible study at the seminary level. I was reluctant to do so, fearing that it would be too technical, especially given the necessity of teaching them some basics of Greek, enough to benefit from the more rewarding academic commentaries. Unlike my regular Bible studies, only 4 signed up and attended regularly. But the impact created one of my most treasured memories. One member, a retired engineer, was too old to go back to school, but each of the other 3 younger members got their Masters in theology.

(1) I helped get 1 of the 3 (a janitor) an $80, 000 full-ride scholarship to Princeton. Like the other young man I recommended to Princeton, this fellow also won the thousand dollar senior thesis prize and was made a junior editor for the Dead Sea Scroll retranslation project. This project was necessary because of technological advances in computers and high-powered microscopes that allowed many blotched out readings in the scrolls to be identified. He is now a published editor. But he preferred to become a United Methodist pastor in Florida, his present location.

(2) I helped a 2nd member of that group to gain admission to a Masters program in theology. After his graduation, I supported him in his quest to become a volunteer for an archaeological dig at Bethsaida, a city on the Sea of Galilee, where up to 5 of the 12 apostles may have lived. He is now a published scholar in the archaeology field and distinguished himself for his insights into buried building structures and tunnels, so much so that he was invited to join a search party for hidden Jewish escape tunnels in Lithuanian Nazi concentration camps. Where other scientists failed, he found the most sought after cave opening and was featured in the premier science TV series Nova that focused on his discovery and other research of the Israeli archaeologists involved. When that Nova program came out, it was a minor sensation in our town.

A 3rd member of that Bible study is a young Russian whom I also recommended for a large scholarship for the Masters program in theology at one of the best of the southern divinity schools. A medical professional, he is now a budding author of spiritual fiction. The privilege of playing a role in the success of 3 of the 4 members of that Bible study group is one of the highlights of my ministry life.
 
Interesting, sometimes, yes. To teenagers, no. Teacher of young adults, maybe so, depending on how high their tolerance for pomposity. Does anyone else remember having to memorize rather huge swaths of the catechism in order to "graduate" confirmation class?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Interesting, sometimes, yes. To teenagers, no. Teacher of young adults, maybe so, depending on how high their tolerance for pomposity. Does anyone else remember having to memorize rather huge swaths of the catechism in order to "graduate" confirmation class?
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Ours wasn't that bad. We had a nice book geared to the audience (ie. pre-teens to teens) that explained it all. Don't recall doing much memorization, actually.
 
How long are confirmation classes. I have led a couple and we did a tour of Synague,

visiting a church of their choice, one on prayer, green pot luck supper for St.Pat's and talking

about trinity, UCCAN structure( they said boring), so we attended a Presbytery meeting( still

said boring) and other things like working at food bank for a few hours Parents wanted shorter time.

I think it should be longer but parents rule. I know some churches have them for a whole year.It also

seems that if Confirmation is boring, the kids don't come back to church I(IMO)
 
How do we jump from "this is how/why we cherish you" to "this is how we live in community to make a greater whole"?

I personally think I got more about the common condition of humanity from memorizing Shakespeare than I ever did from memorizing the catechism. You do all recognize that 'rote learning' is still normative for a bulk of humanity? Our refugee kids find the 'kid-focus' really strange here.
 
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