TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

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Waterfall said:
Could he still be impeached if he stepped down from the presidency or is this even allowed?
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No, he could not. Impeachment is a specific protocol addressing individuals who are protected from litigation while exercising specific office.

Impeachment would, if it ultimately were to be successful, remove the individual from their protected place and allow criminal litigation to proceed according to the law of the land.

Resigning the Presidency would, of necessity, bring impeachment proceedings to a halt. It would also permit charges to be laid against the individual who is now, no longer the sitting President.

If, there was no pardon forth-coming from the newly installed President there would be no legal protection for the former President against having charges laid. Securing a conviction would depend upon the trial.
 
revsdd said:
As for what would happen after Trump leaves office, Richard Nixon was never impeached, but he was pardoned by Gerald Ford, which suggested that Ford at least believed that former presidents could be charged with crimes they committed while in office. So, perhaps, after Trump leaves office in 2021 or 2025 (if he serves a full 4 or 8 years) a criminal indictment might be possible. But if he were to be impeached and removed from office then would indictment and trial in a court after being removed on impeachment and by trial in the Senate be considered a form of double jeopardy, I wonder? It's never happened, so we have no way of knowing.
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And probably wouldn't with Trump either. Assuming Pence doesn't go down with him, he'd probably pull a Ford.
 
revsdd said:
Treason does not require that an act of war take place.

Having said that, it's generally accepted that indicting a sitting president on criminal charges and trying him in court is unconstitutional. That's why the Constitution provides for impeachment - which is the political version of an indictment - and a trial in the Senate. So, at least while he's president, Trump can't be "charged" (criminally) with anything. He would have to be impeached. Article 2, Section 4 of the US Constitution says that "The President ... shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." My understanding is that it's a bit of an open question whether, once impeached and removed from office, criminal charges could then be brought against the (now) former president for whatever crimes were committed.

As I said above, impeachment is a political process. It's for the House and Senate to impeach and convict (or not.) Politicians will be looking to respond to their constituents and save their prospects of re-election. Nixon resigned because impeachment and conviction became inevitable. It's reported that a few days before he resigned, a group of Republican members of Congress told him that impeachment in the House was a certainty and that he had no more than 15 votes for acquittal in the Senate. (He would have needed 34.) So he resigned rather than going through a process that he couldn't win. Republicans turned on Nixon because Nixon was dragging them down. He hadn't lost Congress - he had lost his political base of support, and because of that Congress (even the Republicans) turned on him. That hasn't happened with Trump. His core seems to be absolutely rock solid. His core is convinced that this is all just a giant conspiracy by Clinton supporters, the establishment, and even the Republican elite to get rid of him. His core isn't the traditional Republican core, but Republicans in Congress are going to need that core to get re-elected. As long as Trump's core vote holds firm, it's hard to see him being impeached and removed.

As for what would happen after Trump leaves office, Richard Nixon was never impeached, but he was pardoned by Gerald Ford, which suggested that Ford at least believed that former presidents could be charged with crimes they committed while in office. So, perhaps, after Trump leaves office in 2021 or 2025 (if he serves a full 4 or 8 years) a criminal indictment might be possible. But if he were to be impeached and removed from office then would indictment and trial in a court after being removed on impeachment and by trial in the Senate be considered a form of double jeopardy, I wonder? It's never happened, so we have no way of knowing.
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So how do you see this going "down", what recourse do Americans have and would it be a long process to remove him if it came down to that?
 
Waterfall said:
So how do you see this going "down", what recourse do Americans have and would it be a long process to remove him if it came down to that?
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Remember the Clinton impeachment? At least that long. Given who we are dealing with, probably longer.
 
revjohn said:
No, he could not. Impeachment is a specific protocol addressing individuals who are protected from litigation while exercising specific office.

Impeachment would, if it ultimately were to be successful, remove the individual from their protected place and allow criminal litigation to proceed according to the law of the land.

Resigning the Presidency would, of necessity, bring impeachment proceedings to a halt. It would also permit charges to be laid against the individual who is now, no longer the sitting President.

If, there was no pardon forth-coming from the newly installed President there would be no legal protection for the former President against having charges laid. Securing a conviction would depend upon the trial.
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So an out for Trump would be to secure a pardon from Pence (behind closed doors) if he resigns, or would this damage his ego by resigning?
 
Waterfall said:
So an out for Trump would be to secure a pardon from Pence (behind closed doors) if he resigns
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That would be an out, yes.

Waterfall said:
or would this damage his ego by resigning?
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Seems probable. I do not know how strong his instinct for self-preservation is.
 
Waterfall said:
So how do you see this going "down", what recourse do Americans have and would it be a long process to remove him if it came down to that?
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How's it going to go down? Simply put, I don't think he'll be impeached unless the Democrats manage to win control of the House in 2018, and given how solid his base is I can't see 67 Senators anywhere in the near future being willing to convict and remove him. I think he's president until his term ends. I think it's very conceivable he could be re-elected in 2020. I think we're in for 4-8 years of chaos. As I said - his base is rock solid.

Unless, of course, as some have speculated could happen, he simply gets bored with the job and quits.
 
revsdd said:
How's it going to go down? Simply put, I don't think he'll be impeached unless the Democrats manage to win control of the House in 2018, and given how solid his base is I can't see 67 Senators anywhere in the near future being willing to convict and remove him. I think he's president until his term ends. I think it's very conceivable he could be re-elected in 2020. I think we're in for 4-8 years of chaos. As I said - his base is rock solid.

Unless, of course, as some have speculated could happen, he simply gets bored with the job and quits.
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Sounds like the media might as well let up and go after other issues. Trying to make anything stick is like trying to get something to stick to Teflon.
 
revjohn said:
It would also permit charges to be laid against the individual who is now, no longer the sitting President.
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Not necessarily. There is a school of legal thought in the US that says that a former president cannot be criminally charged with actions committed while he was in office - the reasoning being that impeachment is the process that the Constitution lays out for dealing with things the president does while in office. In other words, only the Congress can properly adjudicate the actions of the president.

Ford's pardon of Nixon was essentially to avoid having that principle tested. But until it's tested, it's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

By the way - the arguments about "treason" are based on Trump giving classified information to the Russians. As almost everyone agrees, the president has the legal right to declassify information anytime he wants and give it to anyone he wants. He had every legal right to give the information to the Russians. Whether it was good judgement is another question.

If Trump's judgement were to come into big time question, then the 25th amendment to the Constitution could kick in, which would allow the Vice President and the majority of the Cabinet to declare Trump unfit for office, basically. That's not very likely either.
 
If the great sign referred to in Revelation 12 and Matthew 24:30 is the one that occurs this September 23, Trump is here because he is the guy who can initiate the calamity that precedes it.
 
Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:
If the great sign referred to in Revelation 12 and Matthew 24:30 is the one that occurs this September 23, Trump is here because he is the guy who can initiate the calamity that precedes it.
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Even if the great sign fails to occur on September 23 there is no denying Trump's ability to initiate calamity.

Which kind of points to our ability not to be fooled, at least by Trump's claims or qualifications or even ability to lead.
 
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