What Do You See?
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Neo
Well-Known Member
And "that" is the big question, isn't it? I believe we can borrow a concept from Einstein's theory of relativity which claims that "your" field of reference in time and space denotes what is true. For instance, if a ball is bouncing on a flat deck on a moving train, for somebody on that moving train the ball is moving up and down and travels a certain distance between the deck of the train and the hand making the ball bounce. But for somebody on the ground watching that train go by, the ball is actually moving a little sideways and therefore the ball is traveling a little farther in both time and space. Who's point of view is correct? Relativity says that both are true at the same time. I see our ideas of God as not that much difference from this. But instead the difference is one's level of awareness that makes us see things differently. For those who see God in strictly religious terms, that is their truth. Who are we to judge others on their point of view. This is why we don't judge young children for not understanding the complexities of advanced math or science.
Can I express that because of lack of evidence ... mortals can be nothing but uncertain regarding the definition of eternal things!
Thus I'll go with Uncertainty Prin. while others ... well you know how they are! I paddle on ... searching for virtuous fisherman of the deeps ...
Thus I'll go with Uncertainty Prin. while others ... well you know how they are! I paddle on ... searching for virtuous fisherman of the deeps ...
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Airclean-post--First once more Neo. I believe you have the right to believe what ever you will. I also understand you were talking to Unsafe not me. But find I am Led to answer you.
This is still no clear definition of how we know if one has the Holy Spirit within them.
Airclean-post--
- You say one must have faith and "believe"? Well, even Robert Baden-Powell incorporated the idea of belief in a higher power in his Scout movement. Belief in God is fundamental in all religions. There's nothing new about this within Christianity.
- You say one must be "born again"? Again, look up the Hindu concept of "twice born", i.e. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvija. This is not a new concept to Christianity.
What you post here is really not true. Here is the Hindu understanding.
The meaning of the two births[edit]
The Upanayanam thread ceremony in Nepal marking initiation as a Dvija.
"Dvija" means "twice-born": the first birth is physical, while the second birth is a 'spiritual' one.[4] The second 'birth' occurs when one takes up fulfilling a role in society, at the time of Upanayana initiation ceremony.
They believe the Holy Spirit Renews the mind. They also believe as you do that the body lies on. Where a Christian Believe it is the spirit of man , that lives on. The flesh is at war with GOD, and is condemned many times" in GODS Holy Word. Staring in The Book of Gen 3:-19
Neo-posted--
Airclean--post--
- You quoted Romans 8:1, which says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" but you omitted the rest of the sentence, which qualifies "them" as those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" This concept too is a fundamental precept in practically all religions, i.e. it's the idea that the visible and ephemeral form will always lead to suffering because that which was was born in time and space will therefore die in time and space. The Spirit, however, is invisible and eternal and will live forevermore, just as energy can't be created or destroyed, a concept that defines the first law of thermodynamics.
I believe you will find ,the flesh is not under thermodynamics.
Neo --post--
Airclean-post--
- You said above that "God is of no Religion". Therefore, by that rational anyone should be able to find God and not be required to be a Christian at all. If God is omnipotent then surely It can manifest through all religion and no religion.
- As for all the "gifts" you sight, well any charlatan could do those, there's nothing defining or of proof about them.
I can agree with you on this it your posting . As I believe Unsafe was say. Only through Christ" are we saved. Not though any Denomination.
Neo -post--
I see God differently. I personally have a different belief regarding who and what the Christ is, for instance. Not your typical orthodox Christian doctrine, but who's really to say what the truth is, from our own points of view the truth is always changing. You say, for instance, that Jesus is the 2nd Person of God, I say the Christ is the Soul of Humanity, the Intermediator between Spirit and Matter. You say the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person of God,
Airclean-post--
Again I agree you have the right to believe what ever you want. That don't make it right. Yes you are right , I would say most Christians would believe The Holly Spirit, is the 3rd part of the trinity .
Neo--Post--
I say it's a force known as a Creative Intelligence working through form and matter. Both of which (form and matter), by the way, are illusionary aspects of nature, which is the reason the 3rd Person is also known as the "Holy Ghost", because like a ghost it changes form as it works it's way through nature.
Airclean-post--What you say . Is just what you believe. I don't think any other religion on earth follows that belief. The Holly Spirit , we Christians are told is a part of GOD The Father , who" also is GOD". and so is also a part of ,Jesus The Christ our Lord". who" also is also GOD". If you can get a mind of mankind around this . Good Luck.
Neo--post--
Our view of God changes according to our awareness, and our awareness changes our point of view. You view God in strictly religious terms, which is ok from your point of view, it's how you are supposed to view God. I personally tend to see things in an esoteric scientific and modern sense. Both views, I believe, are relative truths. The Absolute Truth, however, always stands beyond human thought or expression.
Airclean--post --
You know Neo. It would be so easy to just agree with this part of your post and I almost did. Your last line here ,I agree with. Born again Christians Neo follow a living Person , we call by n
Name Father .We talk with Him" an He" to us , as any living being would do. The Holly Spirit is our guide in understanding what The Father has said and wants us to do. You see GOD The Father is very" very" smart. Much smarter than Man. airclean33
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We test it. We take hypotheses from every sect and belief tradition about the powers and actions of the Holy Spirit and we run experiments to see which ones seem to have any effect and whether those effects match the claims.
Neo
Well-Known Member
There are many things I could respond to here, but I'll just reply to a few.
1. Yes, we all have the right to believe what we want. I've always been a proponent of free thinking. Right winged Christians, on the other hand, may say that I have right to believe what ever I will on one hand but then judge and condemn me with the other hand.
2. I agree that the "twice born" of the Hindus is not exactly the same as the "born again" idea of Christianity, but they do share the same general concept, i.e. it's a "second spiritual birth". You added the part that they believe the 'body' lives on as opposed to the 'spirit'. I'm assuming you're talking about reincarnation here, so for the record dwija is not about reincarnation, it's about a spiritual brith towards a spiritual advancement. Which is the same overall description that Christians use for being born again.
3. Airclean, you said "As I believe Unsafe was say. Only through Christ" are we saved. Not though any Denomination." and then added "What you say . Is just what you believe. I don't think any other religion on earth follows that belief". So for my beliefs to be valid they need to be part of an organized religion or some denomination of a religion? Which is it? And btw, I didn't make this stuff up, it's part of the Esoteric or Ancient Wisdom which most organized religions refuse to accept even exists. Why do they refuse? I don't know but I suspect it has something to do with being chained and attached to an old doctrine that, for the most part, simply doesn't apply to our modern day thinking anymore. We're living a crossroad right now, a crossroad between the old and the new. Eventually the old will pass away like empty and old wine bottles.
4. And finally, let me ask you a question: is the "Holly Spirit" related to the Spirit of Christmas somehow?
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Neo
Well-Known Member
"Distorted" is a relative term, but yea.I see, so a distorted view of the ball is Just as true as the view of ball bouncing up and down for the first guy
great
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
"I spy, with my little eye, something..."
Blind persons may see as well as the sighted in the realm of spirit. Oh that the masses padding corporate coffers by attending sport and theatre spectacles saw even half of what Hellen Keller saw. A mass movement of time and resources from the service of profit to the service of lost and broken persons everywhere we look. The investment of personal human being in the welfare of universal human being.
What do I see? Resorting to Hindu images and concepts, the whole of our establishment is in the thrall of a deep delusion. With Buddhists we notice that erotic desire produces binding attachment. As such it is the root of suffering. In our true human being we lack nothing. Most don't know that. So they are easy picking for diverse corporate carpet baggers. Advertising stimulates desire and promotes remedy by consumption. It exploits the vulnerable in exactly the same way as priests in service to temple economies. Are you feeling guilty? We can fix that for you!
What do I see? The near unanimous support of the Christian Church for the rise of Corporate Capitalism. Even now, with the tragic consequence in plain view, there is little movement to a more critical distance. As in many times past the Christian Church has been silent in the face of avarice and greed. Too much participating and thereby permitting. So the harvest of envy and resentment now reaching epidemic proportion.
Greta says that we have an elephant in the room. Will any quarrel with the observation?
George
Neo
Well-Known Member
... and, to extend the analogy just a bit further, we as human beings can never experience the Ultimate Truth because that Truth would be the equivalent to Newton's Law of Motion regarding "matter at rest". Therefore the natural state of that ball on the train should actually be at rest and not moving at all. Both the observers would therefore be wrong, each subject to their own illusionary point of view. Religiously, this would be the reason why Satan, the personification of all matter and form in general, is a liar, because all matter in motion changes in time and nothing stays the same.I see, so a distorted view of the ball is Just as true as the view of ball bouncing up and down for the first guy
great
We as physical human beings are unable to experience matter at rest because the Energy that's been driven down from the Cosmos is continuously making everything spin in motion. We can't help but live in a world of rotating energy, everything moves and changes. This can be seen and measured with great accuracy as the serpentine clockworks of time and space. Religiously, this is seen as Father Time ruling as the Grim Reaper. He's always there to take the skin-walkers in the end.
Only through awareness can one cut through the maya of illusion that we see around us. Only by the raising of our personal consciousness to that of the Christ Consciousness, the "Christ within", can we ever see the "light within the light". This is the Soul Light that shines from above. It's the Source of light that lay in and behind all outer form. It's the hub of the wheel that appears stationary. If our physical lives are a projection upon a backdrop of matter, then the Soul is the projector, the true light within the light.
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blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Hi Neo-- You posted----
4. And finally, let me ask you a question: is the "Holly Spirit" related to the Spirit of Christmas somehow?--Post447#
Airclean-post--
Neo I myself do not follow Christmas. However if you mean ,when Christ came into the world. He had the Holy Spirit ,with Him" an in Him". As The Word tells us He was of The GOD Family and so was GOD.
Airclean once again you posted---- GOD is prayed to by many beliefs. I have no idea how you believe this . As even the Jews would not accept Him , even to this day , because GOD hardened there hearts for our sake. I believe something is happing in Israel right now. This happening by the hand of GOD, He is now about to open there eyes for they are the chosen as well as we," who follow another Jew. Other religions saved ? where do you find this?
Rom 11:6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
Rom 11:9And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs for ever."
Rom 11:11So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Rom 11:12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
4. And finally, let me ask you a question: is the "Holly Spirit" related to the Spirit of Christmas somehow?--Post447#
Airclean-post--
Neo I myself do not follow Christmas. However if you mean ,when Christ came into the world. He had the Holy Spirit ,with Him" an in Him". As The Word tells us He was of The GOD Family and so was GOD.
Airclean once again you posted---- GOD is prayed to by many beliefs. I have no idea how you believe this . As even the Jews would not accept Him , even to this day , because GOD hardened there hearts for our sake. I believe something is happing in Israel right now. This happening by the hand of GOD, He is now about to open there eyes for they are the chosen as well as we," who follow another Jew. Other religions saved ? where do you find this?
Rom 11:6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Neo
Well-Known Member
Sorry Airclean, this was just an attempt at some poor humour on my account. I was trying to outline the difference between the spelling of "Holly Spirit" vs "Holy Spirit".
The Jews of course do believe in GOD, as do all religions. But most certainly the Jews have a different view on Jesus. More of a prophet than a saviour they believe.Airclean said:
Regarding "other religions saved?" Well, as Unsafe says above "God is of no religion". But I would add that God is also "of all religions" too. You see it's the Christ Awareness within us that saves us, not the religion one possesses. Nobody has ever been saved by theology. Religions are like ladders, something to use to gain altitude in awareness. Once we are done with them we can let them go or maybe pass them along to those who come after us.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Neo ----your quote -----You see it's the Christ Awareness within us that saves us, not the religion one possesses
No Neo ----Grace comes through Faith -----so it is Faith in the Shed Blood of Jesus that saves us -----when we believe that Jesus shed His Precious Blood to take away our sins then we are saved and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us ------
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Ephesians 1:7-10GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
7 Through the blood of his Son, we are set free from our sins. God forgives our failures because of his overflowing kindness.8 He poured out his kindness by giving us every kind of wisdom and insight9 when he revealed the mystery of his plan to us. He had decided to do this through Christ.10 He planned to bring all of history to its goal in Christ. Then Christ would be the head of everything in heaven and on earth.
No Neo ----Grace comes through Faith -----so it is Faith in the Shed Blood of Jesus that saves us -----when we believe that Jesus shed His Precious Blood to take away our sins then we are saved and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us ------
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
Ephesians 1:7-10GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
7 Through the blood of his Son, we are set free from our sins. God forgives our failures because of his overflowing kindness.8 He poured out his kindness by giving us every kind of wisdom and insight9 when he revealed the mystery of his plan to us. He had decided to do this through Christ.10 He planned to bring all of history to its goal in Christ. Then Christ would be the head of everything in heaven and on earth.
It should be noted that, at least in orthodox Christian theology, saving faith is a gift from God. He gets all the credit for it - not the individual who believes.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
All faith comes from God and is given freely ---So God gets the credit for any faith that a person has -----believers and unbelievers -
There are 3 types of Faith described in the Book James ---
"THE EPISTLE OF JAMES"
Three Kinds Of Faith (2:14-26) --read here if interested
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ja/ja_10.htm
unsafe says
To grow in Grace we have to live by Faith ------Jesus is Grace and He is the author and supplier of our Faith
Hebrews 12:2GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
2 We must focus on Jesus, the source and goal of our faith. He saw the joy ahead of him, so he endured death on the cross and ignored the disgrace it brought him. Now he holds the honored position—the one next to God the Father on the heavenly throne.
There are 3 types of Faith described in the Book James ---
"THE EPISTLE OF JAMES"
Three Kinds Of Faith (2:14-26) --read here if interested
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ja/ja_10.htm
unsafe says
To grow in Grace we have to live by Faith ------Jesus is Grace and He is the author and supplier of our Faith
Hebrews 12:2GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
2 We must focus on Jesus, the source and goal of our faith. He saw the joy ahead of him, so he endured death on the cross and ignored the disgrace it brought him. Now he holds the honored position—the one next to God the Father on the heavenly throne.