Interventionist God or Non Interventionist God?

[paradox3]

Many? There are a handful of people who keep the topic alive, with one in particular constantly throwing fuel on the fire. And there is absolutely nothing new or interesting being said on the subject. My own latest posts about Vosper have rehashed stuff I have been saying since WC was still a going concern. If it is really that important a topic for this board, then maybe I will be more selective about which threads I get involved in. Basically, the moment her name drops, I will leave that thread. I should have done that with this one.

Disagree with your remark that "absolutely nothing new or interesting" is being said.

But agree that much of what is being said is repetitive. Point taken.

 

[Luce NDs]

Vosper does not care for God talk.

I care for God talk.

Way too much time wasted trying to figure out which of us is right and which of us is wrong. Specially nasty when either side decides to put down the other side. The sorry history of the planet.

George

Is the fax and definition of god taken from a differing perspective given different experiences with what laid down about god that isn't humble ... like huge lies? Such things leave me flat out with x-positions ... transmutations?

 

[Luce NDs]

It looks like you might have copied it over there rather than moved it. Posters are still responding here.

Tangent: I don't really approve of moving posts from thread to thread. Too much confusion. It is fine for the topic starter to make a request in that vein but no one can really control where these discussions go. If we keep returning to Vosper she must be a timely issue for many of us.

Do Christian staid character find humour in finding the other part of God's creation fall on Ba Nanna peeled for rye purposes?

Heavenly ripples thus are incidental or occur ...

 

[revsdd]

Many? There are a handful of people who keep the topic alive, with one in particular constantly throwing fuel on the fire. And there is absolutely nothing new or interesting being said on the subject. My own latest posts about Vosper have rehashed stuff I have been saying since WC was still a going concern. If it is really that important a topic for this board, then maybe I will be more selective about which threads I get involved in. Basically, the moment her name drops, I will leave that thread. I should have done that with this one.

"The moment her name drops, I will leave that thread." Seriously? That's a bit extreme. There are threads and issues that aren't explicitly about Vosper in which Vosper's views are relevant and appropriate to discuss. I can't see, for example, how - on a board that may not be run by the United Church but is dominated by United Church people - you're going to discuss the concept of a non-interventionist God without some reference to Vosper's views, because she is probably the highest profile figure in at least North American Christian circles espousing the view of a non-interventionist God (although paradox3 is probably correct in suggesting that Vosper has moved from belief in a non-interventionst God to non-theism.)

I do agree with you that what we don't need is for every thread in which her name appropriately comes up to be turned into a debate or argument (and I agree that it's one poster who regularly throws fuel on the fire in that regard) about Greta's status in the United Church or the situation at West Hill or the congregation's future. Those issues are completely irrelevant in this thread.

Maybe we should establish a thread called "Everything Vosper" and every time a mod or admin sees something written about her that's totally irrelevant to the point of a thread and is just trying to continue the argument about her status in the UC or West Hill's place in the UC it should be moved there. I'm kind of serious about that.

 

[Luce NDs]

Should all debates on spirit and sol (in)substantial stuff be ignored in light of the physical concerns? Tis like a thorn somewhere you can't see ... that'd be "þ" in a Latin form ... added to "chi" (x) is that a UCC icon ... very fishy indeed!

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Vosper does not care for God talk.

I care for God talk.

Way too much time wasted trying to figure out which of us is right and which of us is wrong. Specially nasty when either side decides to put down the other side. The sorry history of the planet.

George

The sorry history of religion.

 

[Luce NDs]

De-rahma-ties-Zae-shine of light that cannot be seen because of the wall of emotions? Is there a crack indi Wahl ... a schism through which one may see from absolute to abstract sides? Would this be a flaw in the dualistic sol as de deuce ... a dark sol-like spirit of projected Shadow ... or conscience transference to the significant other ... for the sake of having someone other to blame for the flaw ... habit-chew-el entity here in the depths of cosmos. Does allow for rebound if you are a resilient rabbi'ð ... allowing for ether an dahl ... for continuance of the struggle in the dark ... old adage lighten up ... dump some of the baggage!

What has heavier impact ... de light or impact of unseen con sequences ... some prescience may be an attractive affinity ... and pupils to consume de light .. as d' avid saw in the beauty of the dark ... Black Beauty of Onyx ... GOOGLE it! Leads to chalcedony and cognate ... compared to nailing opposites ... some drifting can be expected ... and then observing if the drift returns back at yah! Real people are not a virtual stay'd item ... nothing like the Shadow of the greater mind ... god'sol scares the bej E'sus out of the reality ... as subtle power of support. Real men hate to admit dependency ... especially on all about character in masques ... nothing rye to wit ... odd psyches?

Is tha talle ... no ... dark powers push up mountains so tallus can recycle and fall again as Annie spirit ... the indomitable Mole ah boy ... a bit browne doff by the baiting of indeterminate word as it reacts? Thus the Wahl of ink'n words ... to see what emotions rise from the prototype ... testees? Some are hostile to tests, some are responsible ... and respond to the questions with gentile nature ... not Juli'n spheres (big Ba'aLs)? So much BS to digest ... in comparative consumption to see what works ... a Job that wears one to the bones ... thus the flayed concept ... and skeletons in the wardrobe ...

 

[Waterfall]

It was post #223 from the "United With God" thread that prompted me to post this thread in order to continue another separate conversation.

 

[GeoFee]

What I'm reading is that you like to hear things like "I wish them the best" from someone who wishes that Gretta Vosper loses her job and West Hill loses the minister they support, and you don't want me calling out the above.

I don't react so predictably to a pleasant tone. Too often, jerks use lovely canned phrases that they don't really mean, and people buy it. If you're fooled by an overused, happy turn of phrase and fail to see the nasty undertones, but are offended by me laying out why it's not as nice as you think it is, then I can't help you further. I've laid it all out in as simple language as I can find.

The key thing is what you are reading. I trust that as a critical thinker you are aware that what I intend may not be what you perceive. To use as argument for your perspective "you like to hear things like..." misses the mark by a fair degree. In this you attribute an intention that is not even close to the purpose of my intervention. I am not here to side with DH against you or any other. Nor am I here to side with you or any other.

You notice that you are not fooled by persons acting falsely. In this case DH, a participant in this place, has not fooled you. He is up to no good and intends ill for persons he disagrees with. You are aware of his purpose and his motive in a way that I am not. Unlike you, I "like to hear" false expressions of good will. This is what I am hearing you say. Is my hearing accurate?

My concern in the exercise of this intervention is the manner in which you take disdain and disparagement of persons you disagree with as acceptable and commendable. Second class citizens deserve to be ridiculed for their delusions specific the word God. Every first class citizen knows this. Right?

How is calling fellow human beings jerks and idiots bringing remedy to our common plight?

George

 

[Luce NDs]

The key thing is what you are reading. I trust that as a critical thinker you are aware that what I intend may not be what you perceive. To use as argument for your perspective "you like to hear things like..." misses the mark by a fair degree. In this you attribute an intention that is not even close to the purpose of my intervention. I am not here to side with DH against you or any other. Nor am I here to side with you or any other.

You notice that you are not fooled by persons acting falsely. In this case DH, a participant in this place, has not fooled you. He is up to no good and intends ill for persons he disagrees with. You are aware of his purpose and his motive in a way that I am not. Unlike you, I "like to hear" false expressions of good will. This is what I am hearing you say. Is my hearing accurate?

My concern in the exercise of this intervention is the manner in which you take disdain and disparagement of persons you disagree with as acceptable and commendable. Second class citizens deserve to be ridiculed for their delusions specific the word God. Every first class citizen knows this. Right?

How is calling fellow human beings jerks and idiots bringing remedy to our common plight?

George

Always make light of both polity ... you can rest assured that both sides will isolate, deny and ignore you ... it is the dark abstract nature of m'n as expressed in Greek as UV ... an off-light (obtuse, occult, obscure) sort of heavy feeling I get when the demos are suppressed into partisan ... subtleties? The poles on both sides find this ridiculous behavior in the midst of serious schism ... strings attached? You can attest to this on a study of Apropos ... a Greek triad ... is this contrary to the Muses?

 

[GeoFee]

"Even here we see people proclaiming things that have no evidence behind them, and pointing that out is considered rude. I don't think we should consider debunking any claim as off-limits." chansen

Hi

There is nothing I appreciate more than the shining of light in dark places. This is metaphoric imagery to say I value the overcoming of falsehood by truth. Please take this as my support and encouragement of your basic insight and your determination to bring it forward.

There are no doubt many points of contention between us specific to the ubiquitous presence of the word God in human experience. This intervention comes only to question your rhetorical resort to derision and disparagement. I take these qualities to represent what philosophy calls the ad hominem arguement. As such they undermine the aspiration to truth and support the rise of falsehood. They hinder more than they help.

I am encouraged by your critical concern for the misuse and abuse of God language. I am hoping for more of the same from all corners. What I disagree with is your resort to the pejorative voice. This disagreement is offered as an opportunity for you to consider your use of language and make adjustments by which your key insights will be brought into clear focus. This is of course your choice.

You, with others, have invested a generous amount of energy in this project. It is my hope that this investment will bring positive returns for you and for all who occupy and visit the Café.

George

 

[Birch]

I think I have read through the 9 pages of post thoroughly - Here is my take:

God intervenes when we intervene.
We each contain the spark of the Divine. God. Inside.
We create space for that divine aspect that is our true self via prayer, meditation and other acts that help us to silence our loud 'Look at me, look what I can do!' voice (some call this the ego)
Our bodies are shells that hold our spirit. Our spirits activated and enlivened by God, but shaped by our life experiences, our choices, our joys and our pains.
We are all born, and our bodies will each fail. Either due to age, accident or illness.
When our inner chatter is quiet enough to allow our true nature to emerge, then we can do great things. When our true nature is obscured by the needs, desires, pains and even happy distractions of life, we don't hear God so easily. Because then our little self is at the reigns, taking over and directing where it wants to go. Whether it be for social status or to statisfy wants. etc
So, does God intervene? If we allow It to.
But not in the way that a friendly bearded grandfather reaches out and snatches a drowning child. God intervenes by allowing us to see that there is still beauty and joy in the world. God intervenes by burning brighter inside us to light our way in the darkness.
~ I had an experience similar to the Burning Bush once.I was not a Christian. Not a Jew. But something happened that suddenly manifested divinity (from within?) in something seemingly ordinary. Something that was suddenly illuminated and time stood still and the overwhelming experience that followed has allowed me to keep the door open for such imagery/communication from time to time since then. For me it's like.. it IS already inside us, and sometimes we can see that divinity reflected in the natural world around us, especially when space is made from within, for It to make Itself known. ~

 

[Luce NDs]

Are thoughts and desires something that people cannot prove to be a real thing? Can anyone see your thoughts ... especially if presented as metaphor or allegory?

Can people see your spirit ... other than , or to indicate high or lo' spirits or a whole other array ... like curiosity as to why another is in the emotional mode they are in? Is a masque a source of chaos?

Thoughts, intelligence and wisdom are very subtle ... perhaps even partisan if they are out to get you! Then if one searches out this kind of restriction on an acquaintance ... might they be a control freak? I don't know but one could poke and agitate to see responses to see if they are truly a persona of avarice ... some people are really avid to control things they have no business tampering with ... like the Celtic Don ... an confident man in a hole ... isolated .... mahaineim in Hebrew!

On this illustration are thoughts and emotions possible spirits appearing as ghosts unseen? These may be transparent ... but maybe not with adequate skills in probing the mental pool ... disliked as well as people asking about another's psyche ...

Some people are scared to death, someone will find they have associated with a psychologist or sol doctor ... it can be considered depressive or oppressing ... a case for the mockingbird (coo cold) taking flight as in One Flew Over ...

Some of us are in high flight or states of laughter of a crazy world declaring us insane. This is a forensic concern as only a certified judge of law to decide ... making psychologists an psychiatrists redundant ... can you imagine a high court judge appointed by a business oriented CEO ... making such an executive decision ... when some authorities say that all high level positions are occupied by psychopaths ... allows room for re Occupy Movements ...

NOSH-ite ova! Thus it falls ...

 

[GeoFee]

The sorry history of religion.

Hi Pavlos,

Have you any experience with Socrates on the problem of power misused and abused? The shift from democracy to tyranny?

Sure religion has been and is being deployed in service to nefarious purpose. This is the problem of nefarious purpose vexing human being in nature and religion is not to be blamed.

In the case of religion, as in all things, right use brings benefit, misuse brings harm and, abuse brings danger.

George

 

[GeoFee]

The intervention of a God seems foolish to any who have had no immediate experience with any of the available gods and goddesses. The idea that I am not here by chance as much as by purpose. That I as a free willed particular bear responsibility for a balanced universal being. Exercising this responsibility brings me the satisfaction of my deep human being.

Working for home care in Manitoba I was sent to intervene in the lives of vulnerable persons. These interventions were consistently beneficial.

Telling the story of my experience I begin with the living presence of God within and without me from conception till now. That presence led me to the home care work. That presence animated my intervention.

Can I prove any of this? No. Has this influenced my personal growth as human being? In myriad ways for which I am increasingly grateful.

George

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Hi Pavlos,

Have you any experience with Socrates on the problem of power misused and abused? The shift from democracy to tyranny?

Yes other thing can be used to control, to kill. However nothing has the honour more so than religion.

Sure religion has been and is being deployed in service to nefarious purpose. This is the problem of nefarious purpose vexing human being in nature and religion is not to be blamed.

Shall we just talk about the Christianity and leave the other religions for later, it's holy book is an incitement to violence, and if it is the word of god as so many believe, then it is being deployed for nefarious purposes by said god.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg

Nowhere else is it written "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."Exodus 22:18

In the case of religion, as in all things, right use brings benefit, misuse brings harm and, abuse brings danger.

Yet where do you find right use from religion. Given the right reasons a religious person will do wrong/harm, for and because of said religion.

 

[Luce NDs]

Hi Pavlos,

Have you any experience with Socrates on the problem of power misused and abused? The shift from democracy to tyranny?

Sure religion has been and is being deployed in service to nefarious purpose. This is the problem of nefarious purpose vexing human being in nature and religion is not to be blamed.

In the case of religion, as in all things, right use brings benefit, misuse brings harm and, abuse brings danger.

George

Without pain how would one learn ... read a bit of Teresa of Avila ... who was avid about learning ... contrary to the decrees of the patriarchy of the time ... MOG could this be our sane history?

 

[Luce NDs]

The intervention of a God seems foolish to any who have had no immediate experience with any of the available gods and goddesses. The idea that I am not here by chance as much as by purpose. That I as a free willed particular bear responsibility for a balanced universal being. Exercising this responsibility brings me the satisfaction of my deep human being.

Working for home care in Manitoba I was sent to intervene in the lives of vulnerable persons. These interventions were consistently beneficial.

Telling the story of my experience I begin with the living presence of God within and without me from conception till now. That presence led me to the home care work. That presence animated my intervention.

Can I prove any of this? No. Has this influenced my personal growth as human being? In myriad ways for which I am increasingly grateful.

George

But is the intervention of the God of wisdom strange to those denying the surrounding psyche as evidence of encompassing knowledge and data beyond the emotionally blinded?

Perhaps just a po' myth, or oppressed Leah ... inna League all Ur own as behind a Veil ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Yes other thing can be used to control, to kill. However nothing has the honour more so than religion.

Shall we just talk about the Christianity and leave the other religions for later, it's holy book is an incitement to violence, and if it is the word of god as so many believe, then it is being deployed for nefarious purposes by said god.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg

Nowhere else is it written "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."Exodus 22:18

Yet where do you find right use from religion. Given the right reasons a religious person will do wrong/harm, for and because of said religion.

Is a wise witch a deterrent to those that would rather not know anything as driven by blood lust ... back to the Roman games and kicking anything and everything around ... thus physically based gods are varied in nature as compared to one-way mortal gods ... in which death by wine, virtue, or poetics could cause chaos ... and thus loss of thought as metaphorical satyr ... real troubling to those desiring simple things ... open thigns ? Mysteries to crack ...

 

[Waterfall]

I think I have read through the 9 pages of post thoroughly - Here is my take:

God intervenes when we intervene.
We each contain the spark of the Divine. God. Inside.
We create space for that divine aspect that is our true self via prayer, meditation and other acts that help us to silence our loud 'Look at me, look what I can do!' voice (some call this the ego)
Our bodies are shells that hold our spirit. Our spirits activated and enlivened by God, but shaped by our life experiences, our choices, our joys and our pains.
We are all born, and our bodies will each fail. Either due to age, accident or illness.
When our inner chatter is quiet enough to allow our true nature to emerge, then we can do great things. When our true nature is obscured by the needs, desires, pains and even happy distractions of life, we don't hear God so easily. Because then our little self is at the reigns, taking over and directing where it wants to go. Whether it be for social status or to statisfy wants. etc
So, does God intervene? If we allow It to.
But not in the way that a friendly bearded grandfather reaches out and snatches a drowning child. God intervenes by allowing us to see that there is still beauty and joy in the world. God intervenes by burning brighter inside us to light our way in the darkness.
~ I had an experience similar to the Burning Bush once.I was not a Christian. Not a Jew. But something happened that suddenly manifested divinity (from within?) in something seemingly ordinary. Something that was suddenly illuminated and time stood still and the overwhelming experience that followed has allowed me to keep the door open for such imagery/communication from time to time since then. For me it's like.. it IS already inside us, and sometimes we can see that divinity reflected in the natural world around us, especially when space is made from within, for It to make Itself known. ~

Welcome to Wondercafe2! Also thank you for sharing your personal experience on being awakened and illuminated to the divine.