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chansen said:
Because you always think your enthusiasm for God is so much more important than everyone else's interests. I make an analogy to my sport and people think I'm mocking religion. I'm not. At least, not then.
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Did someone say your sports analogy was mocking religion?
 
Dave Henderson said:
Hi Chansen, If I join the Petawawa Ski Club, then show up with a snowboard, the folks in the ski club will say, "I think you're mistaken. You need to join the snowboard club." The same thing would happen if a skier showed up at a snowboard club. Both co-exist on the slopes, but there are basic requirements to belong to a group dedicated to one downhill discipline or the other.
For the Christian faith community known as the United Church of Canada, the basic requirement is belief in the Triune God.http://www.united-church.ca/community-faith/welcome-united-church-canada/what-we-believe Those who do not believe are certainly most welcome. But they should respect the beliefs of the faith community. As for leadership, why would the ski club hire a snowboard instructor? They would hire someone who would guide skiers forward in the sport of skiing. The same simple but compelling logic applies to the United Church.
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Triune God. Very important. Got it.

And please don't hijack my perfectly fine analogy, screw it up, then blame me. Ski clubs hire both ski and snowboard instructors. I don't know a single one that doesn't. Have a do-over if you'd like.
 
No, but the skiers don't stand in the way of a snowboarder teaching snowboarding on the same hill.
 
chansen said:
I really think people assumed that non-faith had no future. If you really believe in God, then perhaps you think that God will sort it out, or that something that is not of God will fail. It didn't. Not only did Rev. Vosper not believe in God, but God didn't make her fail. They waited, and God did nothing. God is like that.
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I think this might have something to do with Free Will.
 
revsdd said:
Do the snowboarders teach the skiers how to ski?
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Of course not, but that doesn't speak to chansen's point. His point is that you won't get kicked out of the club if you switch from skiing to boarding and both share the slopes. Little M and his buddy go to Boler together. My son skies, his buddy boards and teaches boarding, but has also been learning to ski. He's not going to lose his snowboard instructor's certification because he's started skiing. If he gets certified as a ski instructor, he'll be able to teach both, not just one or the other. IOW, the two coexist and learn from each other. Freestyle skiing began when skiers decided they could do cool tricks, too. They learned that from the boarders.

So why can't different beliefs share pews and learn from each other, too?

Oh wait. I used to go to that church. :cool: And still might now that I think about it.
 
Mendalla said:
Of course not, but that doesn't speak to chansen's point. His point is that you won't get kicked out of the club if you switch from skiing to boarding and both share the slopes. Little M and his buddy go to Boler together. My son skies, his buddy boards and teaches boarding, but has also been learning to ski. He's not going to lose his snowboard instructor's certification because he's started skiing. If he gets certified as a ski instructor, he'll be able to teach both, not just one or the other. IOW, the two coexist and learn from each other. Freestyle skiing began when skiers decided they could do cool tricks, too. They learned that from the boarders.

So why can't different beliefs share pews and learn from each other, too?

Oh wait. I used to go to that church. :cool: And still might now that I think about it.
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I was being a bit flippant, because I really am sick and tired of chansen's argument to be blunt. It's obvious that he thinks I need to get out of the United Church, because I won't stay in a church that isn't explicitly Christian and I've said that. Many others (I suspect the large majority) would feel the same way. So as much as theists are accused of trying to drive atheists out, the same is true in reverse, because they know that the vast majority of Christians want to be in a Christian church and aren't interested in UU-lite. I'm also sick of the whole Greta/atheism thing. And, in fact, what I said actually does speak to chansen's point.

You won't get kicked out of the church if you switch from theism to atheism. We've already covered that. Nor do we prevent atheists (or sort-of atheists) from being in positions of leadership and presumably sharing and teaching what they believe. As we've already heard, Bette is in a position of leadership in her own congregation. However, to be a ski instructor at a ski club one must be a ski instructor who understands how to ski. To teach and model Christian faith in a Christian church (which is the purpose of ministry) one must be a Christian. To be a minister one must agree to do certain things. "Word, sacrament and pastoral care" as we've discussed - and Greta's competency and willingness to do all three is in question. So, could the ski instructor at chansen's ski club keep his/her job if he/she insisted on teaching people who wanted to learn to ski how to snowboard?
 
chansen said:
If I was Sisyphus and it was winter, I'd make it a race to the bottom.
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The ground zero of faith when high mental processes give was to loosing it in the rush from passions ... those rocky mountain hi's ... like something up ... under cover ... in tent? There's a vacant point ...
 
crazyheart said:
See my avatar. The lion and the lamb co-exist.
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Across the schism of the divi-dead heart ... God likes diversity ... makes characters in space ... that love to get together to debate isolationist sects!

Why D' avid people go to mahaineim ... the Hebrew word for isolation (albeit ambiguous) so some people can serve as pity-est at the bottom of the aesthetic well ... Shalom? When getting to the bottom you come out in Cathay, or the spirit of knowing when to take a role in it ... the Heh ... and then you're out ... the great escape with Kat heh ... "heh" being Hebrew holy matter that is immaterially marginal metaphor and demon-ish to those satyrs that always reamin stoic and one-way-ish ... they never see the urge to variety ... was D' avid character of myth determined ... or somewhat indeterminate ... a beautiful illusive mind-sol-psyche complex? All part of Game Theo Rae ... playing with black sinuous icons ... for ankh or stretch 've the deep imagination?

Always fully encountered when fully at rest, thy's leap is necessary for re organization in adepts ... some love it some don't! If you don't let it go on as an angel of the night ... something to wrestle with ... causing night sweats ... a' Ba 'd whetting to sharpen you for delights, especially for allegories?
 
From we get Gothic synes like db ... leading to that de boring into the heart lands ... a pain to say the least that awakens us as whole in the decking of the flattened dimensions ... because of heavy-handed powers that despise lighter thoughts in the lesser realms ... grounds of faith that it gets better at some point of the bust, or blunder of those at top? Thus the fall a' Cie ... large splash ... in the Pope's pool ... that far*ce?

CS Lewis said demons despise mocking ... how does one put satyrs down except in the ambiguity of writ as forensic ... psychic pathology? Thus the myrtle of such boids ... fin*ch*s?

In a chaotic world it is so difficult to connect the points without threads of silver ... darkened by ages into the unseen connections ... in diverse cryptic missals ...
 
revsdd said:
because I won't stay in a church that isn't explicitly Christian and I've said that. Many others (I suspect the large majority) would feel the same way.
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Do you think it is possible that the United Church will evolve to no longer be explicitly Christian?

There clearly is a faction who wants us to become more like the Unitarians. There are many other individuals who are pushing against this trend.

And there are many in the denomination who are probably still wondering what the fuss is all about.
 
revsdd said:
I was being a bit flippant, because I really am sick and tired of chansen's argument to be blunt. It's obvious that he thinks I need to get out of the United Church, because I won't stay in a church that isn't explicitly Christian and I've said that. Many others (I suspect the large majority) would feel the same way. So as much as theists are accused of trying to drive atheists out, the same is true in reverse, because they know that the vast majority of Christians want to be in a Christian church and aren't interested in UU-lite. I'm also sick of the whole Greta/atheism thing. And, in fact, what I said actually does speak to chansen's point.

You won't get kicked out of the church if you switch from theism to atheism. We've already covered that. Nor do we prevent atheists (or sort-of atheists) from being in positions of leadership and presumably sharing and teaching what they believe. As we've already heard, Bette is in a position of leadership in her own congregation. However, to be a ski instructor at a ski club one must be a ski instructor who understands how to ski. To teach and model Christian faith in a Christian church (which is the purpose of ministry) one must be a Christian. To be a minister one must agree to do certain things. "Word, sacrament and pastoral care" as we've discussed - and Greta's competency and willingness to do all three is in question. So, could the ski instructor at chansen's ski club keep his/her job if he/she insisted on teaching people who wanted to learn to ski how to snowboard?
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Poor analogy in this case. There's no evidence that the current congregation at WHUC thinks they are being taught the wrong thing. In fact, I think one thing that gets forgotten is that Gretta would not have got where she is in the public eye without a congregation, and a Board, who supported her, and who wanted to move in this direction. (I recognize that P3 was not amongst those, and I respect that, but if you're going to be all congregationalist, which we are, you've got to let Boards do what they feel they need to in order to direct their own congregation the best way they know how.)

Also, "switch from theism to atheism"? This always feels to me like there's a choice in the matter, like switching brands of tea, or putting on jeans or dress pants for the day... I cannot accept the hypothesis that belief is a choice.
 
Like not believing in staid things ... as if Gods learns too as we go? Weird ...

Do determined people like strange diversity?
 
paradox3 said:
Do you think it is possible that the United Church will evolve to no longer be explicitly Christian?

There clearly is a faction who wants us to become more like the Unitarians. There are many other individuals who are pushing against this trend.

And there are many in the denomination who are probably still wondering what the fuss is all about.
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"Us?" There's a generic "us"? That can be 'moved' somewhere? What if this has little to do with "shades of theism" and more to do with "circling the wagons" versus "the widest possible tent? I just do not understand what harm was done by having a little congregation with a big mouth representing the experimental extreme left edge of post-Christianity. Especially when we still happily tolerate and support those with rigid cis-gender, heterocentrist policies.
 
By "us" I meant the denomination. I used the word "us" because I still belong to the United Church and identify with it.

I like your description of West Hill as a little congregation with a big mouth. Very apt.

When the Gretta story reaches its conclusion (whatever that may be) we will most certainly be discussing whether she has harmed or helped the United Church.

The conclusion is still a long way off.

As for your last point, someone asked me recently why all the United Churches in Scarborough were not flying the rainbow flag. I thought it was a very good question.
 
And I don't want all of the UCCan churches in Scarborough to fly the rainbow flag, because it would be false advertising, and LGBTQ people would get hurt.
 
BetteTheRed said:
And I don't want all of the UCCan churches in Scarborough to fly the rainbow flag, because it would be false advertising, and LGBTQ people would get hurt.
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You are completely right!

My point is that we are not as inclusive a denomination as we often claim to be. I think folks sometimes look at the rainbow flag at one of our churches and assume it is a denominational thing. This is where the person who spoke to me about it was coming from.
 
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