United With God

[chansen]

Your suggestion, your idea. Where is the evidence that anyone in our denomination puts this "second class member" spin on anything?

Are you really going to double down on the idea that allowing a person to be a member, while you would remove any leader who agrees with them through a disciplinary process, does not make them a second class member?

Am I completely alone in seeing it this way?

 

[chansen]

Still waiting to hear @chansen 's ideas re: how we can accommodate believers and non-believers in a way he would find acceptable.

First - and I know this sounds crazy - don't try to DSL ministers who have the support of their congregations and who are hurting no one.

Second, create safe spaces within congregations for the discussion of post-Christian ideas. Talk about how the message doesn't have to be lost when faith is. Because faith is being lost. And while I don't think you're going to bring many of them back to faith, you don't have to lose them entirely.

 

[paradox3]

What is a "post-Christian" idea to you, @chansen?

Appreciating your thoughtful answer but I need to know your definition of "post-Christian" before I can respond.

 

[paradox3]

Are you really going to double down on the idea that allowing a person to be a member, while you would remove any leader who agrees with them through a disciplinary process, does not make them a second class member?

Am I completely alone in seeing it this way?

Maybe.

 

[chansen]

What is a "post-Christian" idea to you, @chansen?

Appreciating your thoughtful answer but I need to know your definition of "post-Christian" before I can respond.

Jesus, if he existed, was just this guy.

 

[chansen]

Are you really going to double down on the idea that allowing a person to be a member, while you would remove any leader who agrees with them through a disciplinary process, does not make them a second class member?

Am I completely alone in seeing it this way?

Maybe.

I'm going to quote that exchange one more time to make people read it again. They might need two or three passes before it sinks in. To me, it's as jarring as a frying pan to the face.

 

[Ritafee]

Hi Mendella, I try not to comment on issues that involve human resources because they are a highly sensitive issue. But since this has become a public issue, yes, I support the United Church's actions to ensure that leaders in our Christian faith community are in essential agreement with the beliefs of this faith community.

So many slippery slopes ... kind of like expecting a ski instructor to wear ski's not roller skates.

 

[paradox3]

Jesus, if he existed, was just this guy.

Well, I really can't say I have run into many in the United Church who think Jesus was "just this guy". Lots of our members will tell you they don't take the virgin birth or resurrection narratives literally. But that is a different kettle of fish than saying Jesus was no one especially important.

So your vision for us is to make space to sit around discussing how Jesus is unimportant? Am I getting this correctly?

 

[chansen]

No. Like blackbelt or AC33, you are going to make it as difficult as possible and misstate my position, seemingly on purpose.

My point is that you can value the positive messages without the fantasy interludes of God the rapist impregnating Mary who produces a son, who is also God, who has to die for some bizarre reason which is celebrated. That does not make Jesus unimportant. It makes him a guy. Maybe. But there are morals and messages which are valuable that people can cling to, without believing in the actual divinity or even existence of Jesus.

 

[paradox3]

No. Like blackbelt or AC33, you are going to make it as difficult as possible and misstate my position, seemingly on purpose.

No, I am not misstating your position on purpose at all. On the contrary, I am attempting to understand it. I have asked you several times how you would see us live out the inclusion of both believers and non-believers in the life of the church. Allowing for discussion of "Jesus is just this guy" is the closest you have come to giving me an answer.

My point is that you can value the positive messages without the fantasy interludes of God the rapist impregnating Mary who produces a son, who is also God, who has to die for some bizarre reason which is celebrated. That does not make Jesus unimportant. It makes him a guy. Maybe. But there are morals and messages which are valuable that people can cling to, without believing in the actual divinity or even existence of Jesus.

Yes, indeed you can. You can uphold these morals and messages as a person of faith or as a secular humanist. Whatever you like.

For many of us as people of faith, the beliefs we hold and our values are intertwined. And we understand the stories you are mocking in a variety of different ways.

 

[Luce NDs]

So many slippery slopes ... kind of like expecting a ski instructor to wear ski's not roller skates.

Sort of like Sisyphus and that "flocking off" commentary that leads to those on the quest ... leaving in hoards?

Perhaps where Webster came up with the concept that intelligence is out-there compared to the emotions in-Eire ...

 

[chansen]

If I was Sisyphus and it was winter, I'd make it a race to the bottom.

 

[paradox3]

First - and I know this sounds crazy - don't try to DSL ministers who have the support of their congregations and who are hurting no one.

OTOH , any minister whose actions result in a congregational split with two-thirds of the membership leaving is not "hurting no one."

Granted it was a long time ago but Rev Vosper caused plenty of hurt back in the day.

At this time she has a loyal gang of followers . . . no disputing this.

 

[crazyheart]

Way to go @chansen and @paradox3. I have learned much.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Are you really going to double down on the idea that allowing a person to be a member, while you would remove any leader who agrees with them through a disciplinary process, does not make them a second class member?

Am I completely alone in seeing it this way?

No. I've expressed my increasing discomfort with the larger church through this whole process. In fact, I've expressed my discomfort to a member of the interview committee, which was a very stilted conversation. Before this whole process, I had a feeling about the UCCan that it was open to questioning, open to uncomfortable new ideas. Now, not so much.

 

[chansen]

I really think people assumed that non-faith had no future. If you really believe in God, then perhaps you think that God will sort it out, or that something that is not of God will fail. It didn't. Not only did Rev. Vosper not believe in God, but God didn't make her fail. They waited, and God did nothing. God is like that.

 

[chansen]

So many slippery slopes ... kind of like expecting a ski instructor to wear ski's not roller skates.

In the 90s a bunch of ex-skiing heretics converted to snowboarding. It's pretty much the same thing to me as disbelieving God is to you. We dealt with it. We coexist.

 

[paradox3]

Do skiers and snowboarders share the same hills? Belong to the same clubs?

Just trying to understand the analogy.

I walk on an indoor track that has runners and walkers co-existing. . . never thought of it as a church analogy until now.

 

[Dave Henderson]

In the 90s a bunch of ex-skiing heretics converted to snowboarding. It's pretty much the same thing to me as disbelieving God is to you. We dealt with it. We coexist.

Hi Chansen, If I join the Petawawa Ski Club, then show up with a snowboard, the folks in the ski club will say, "I think you're mistaken. You need to join the snowboard club." The same thing would happen if a skier showed up at a snowboard club. Both co-exist on the slopes, but there are basic requirements to belong to a group dedicated to one downhill discipline or the other.
For the Christian faith community known as the United Church of Canada, the basic requirement is belief in the Triune God.http://www.united-church.ca/community-faith/welcome-united-church-canada/what-we-believe Those who do not believe are certainly most welcome. But they should respect the beliefs of the faith community. As for leadership, why would the ski club hire a snowboard instructor? They would hire someone who would guide skiers forward in the sport of skiing. The same simple but compelling logic applies to the United Church.

 

[chansen]

Do skiers and snowboarders share the same hills? Belong to the same clubs?

Just trying to understand the analogy.

I walk on an indoor track that has runners and walkers co-existing. . . never thought of it as a church analogy until now.

Because you always think your enthusiasm for God is so much more important than everyone else's interests. I make an analogy to my sport and people think I'm mocking religion. I'm not. At least, not then.