United With God

[Dave Henderson]

You never left that faith in the triune God. Others have. How many, it's difficult to tell, but not an insignificant number.

My point is that the denomination allowed and even fostered that change. That's what you're trying to reverse. You think belief in this triune God thing that you do a lousy job of explaining is the most important thing and should be where the bar is set. Many around you can't clear that bar. Their leap of faith does not go that high.

I do not see anything in our wonderful United Church faith statements that seek to change the nature of the triune God Chansen. And yeah, maybe I`ve done a lousy job of explaining God as expressed through the trinity. I am not a theologian, so you may need to go elsewhere for more eloquent and cogent explanations. And yes, as a Christian Church that has joyfully declared its faith in the triune God, for the United Church of Canada that is where the bar is set, as you put it. I cannot speak for the faith life of others who you say can`t clear that bar. I will continue to pray for our wonderful church and all those who are a part of it.

 

[Dave Henderson]

You never left that faith in the triune God. Others have. How many, it's difficult to tell, but not an insignificant number.

My point is that the denomination allowed and even fostered that change. That's what you're trying to reverse. You think belief in this triune God thing that you do a lousy job of explaining is the most important thing and should be where the bar is set. Many around you can't clear that bar. Their leap of faith does not go that high.

Are we a church that believes in God as articulated through the Father/Mother, Son and Holy Spirit? The United Church does believe in a triune God as expressed through its faith statements and public platforms like its website. If people have abandoned their faith in God as expressed by our church, perhaps it is time they searched their hearts and souls and made some decisions about their church home. I do not say this lightly or with any hint of malice at all. I love all the folks in our United Church and will continue to love them wherever their journey takes them.

 

[Mendalla]

I do not see anything in our wonderful United Church faith statements that seek to change the nature of the triune God Chansen. And yeah, maybe I`ve done a lousy job of explaining God as expressed through the trinity. I am not a theologian, so you may need to go elsewhere for more eloquent and cogent explanations. And yes, as a Christian Church that has joyfully declared its faith in the triune God, for the United Church of Canada that is where the bar is set, as you put it. I cannot speak for the faith life of others who you say can`t clear that bar. I will continue to pray for our wonderful church and all those who are a part of it.

Even as a UCCan member, I did not take the Trinity literally. As I put it later in a UU sermon, I see it as a "face of God", a way that we see God in the world; a friendly face on that which is ultimately beyond our senses and reason. Each of the Three sees God in a different way: Creator/Parent, Redeemer/Healer, Guide/Inspiration. The underlying reality, though, is complex beyond our understanding and for us to pretend that God really IS Trinitarian risks being "stuck in the myth"; taking the image for reality and missing the power and the beauty of the "real reality".

Obviously, my current position as a pantheist means that I don't even go that far anymore, but it would likely be my starting point were I to return to the United Church.

 

[chansen]

Are we a church that believes in God as articulated through the Father/Mother, Son and Holy Spirit? The United Church does believe in a triune God as expressed through its faith statements and public platforms like its website. If people have abandoned their faith in God as expressed by our church, perhaps it is time they searched their hearts and souls and made some decisions about their church home. I do not say this lightly or with any hint of malice at all. I love all the folks in our United Church and will continue to love them wherever their journey takes them.

As long as it takes them somewhere else.

I wish more of them would stand up and declare that it is their church, too.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

If the UCC is going to make belief in the triune god the main point of the agenda with which one has to comply to be "in" - or " accepted" as equal ( vs the attitude :you are welcome here so you can learn to believe like us)- I would definitely be gone. Because that attitude I can find in any of the other denominations.

I very much liked "the song of faith" because of that part- " we cannot keep from singing". This deeply expresses what I would call my experience of life- because even with it's up and downs, it still comes down for me that if fills me with joy and can't keep me from singing. That experience, if you want to name it,I would name God. Trinity, holy books, all that are metaphors people have come up with to describe it.
When I learned about the UCC, I was pleasantly surprised that this seemed to be almost mainstream in it. With the whole Gretta thing, the voices seem louder to get back to the rulebook. First, declare your belief into the metaphores, second the joy will come out of that, because you are believing " the right thing".
I' d become a Baptist, if I wanted that.

 

[paradox3]

As long as it takes them somewhere else.

I wish more of them would stand up and declare that it is their church, too.

You don't think Gretta and her supporters are standing up to declare this? I think they are being very vocal about it.

 

[paradox3]

With the whole Gretta thing, the voices seem louder to get back to the rulebook.

Yes, we have seen some of that . . .
Others are simply saying we need to honour belief in God as a core value of our denomination.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I guess that's fine, although it clearly leaves me out.

My problem with all of this is that one cannot force belief. If the UCCan is ONLY for people who have been "given" that belief, then let's make it perfectly clear and kick all the heathens out. I won't let the door hit me on my way out.

 

[Mendalla]

I guess that's fine, although it clearly leaves me out.

My problem with all of this is that one cannot force belief. If the UCCan is ONLY for people who have been "given" that belief, then let's make it perfectly clear and kick all the heathens out. I won't let the door hit me on my way out.

As Steven pointed in my thread on leaving/changing churches, members are not obligated to be in "essential agreement" like ministers are so they really can't "kick all the heathens out" because there really aren't any standards for defining "heathens". Individual churches could make them feel unwelcome by playing up the God talk and suchlike, but your congregation and others seem to be okay with having you in their midst so why worry. The short version for individual members (who are not subject to "essential agreement") seems to be that if your congregation is okay with your beliefs, all is good. There is no GC, presbyterial, or conference oversight for individual members.

 

[Luce NDs]

Heathens, pagans ... common people out there and looked down upon by those up there ... leaving room for a label demos ... and reason to behead common johns! Those despised lower powers ...

 

[chansen]

As Steven pointed in my thread on leaving/changing churches, members are not obligated to be in "essential agreement" like ministers are so they really can't "kick all the heathens out" because there really aren't any standards for defining "heathens". Individual churches could make them feel unwelcome by playing up the God talk and suchlike, but your congregation and others seem to be okay with having you in their midst so why worry. The short version for individual members (who are not subject to "essential agreement") seems to be that if your congregation is okay with your beliefs, all is good. There is no GC, presbyterial, or conference oversight for individual members.

But they can make them feel like second class members with inferior beliefs, and that any leaders who agree with them should be removed. The individual members are allowed to contribute time and money, but not ideas. They are not allowed to become leaders. They aren't allowed to have leaders they identify with.

I wonder if it would just be better to tell Bette and others to leave. Because if they don't, they will rightfully advocate for their conclusions and beliefs, or lack thereof. Which is apparently something UCCAN types will not have. Their untenable beliefs can't deal with the competition.

 

[paradox3]

@chansen since you are so convinced we need to be more welcoming of non-belief, could you give us your vision of what this would look like?

In your view, would all of our churches become duplicates of West Hill and its worship style? Would we all cease using God-talk, stop reading from the Bible and no longer identify as followers of Jesus Christ? Or are you thinking only some of our congregations need to follow West Hill's example?

I suspect you would like us to evolve away from belief all together.

What do you recommend for the traditional believers we still have in our denomination? They are likely going to remain with us for the foreseeable future.

 

[paradox3]

@BetteTheRed How do you see a church community accommodating both traditional believers and those who think as you do? Does the church you attend do this in any particular way?

I know a fair bit about how West Hill offers "theologically barrier-free worship" and it works for some traditional believers. Not all.

 

[Luce NDs]

Would the evaluation of what a greater community's perspective of "God" is/are ... raise a great field of visions to evaluate?

Would we to work on processing such a great complexity?

Is that simple, balled up, or what in the ringing of spheres as well rounded and broad-based?

 

[Dave Henderson]

I just want to be clear. I don't want to kick any "heathens" out. I am simply proclaiming the loving God that was and is the cornerstone of this United Church I love so much. If folks want to come and worship with us who do not believe as we do, or do not believe at all, they are not only allowed, they are most welcome. But the United Church of Canada is a Christian faith community that is expressing faith in God, both in our lives and in the world. In it's most recent pastoral letter, praying for the people of the Philippines, our church called on the Eternal Creator. It capitalized Eternal Creator, as in a proper noun, as in a cognitive, living being. That being is God. Our church believes in a living, creator God. It is that living God, the Eternal Creator, our United With God campaign lovingly proclaims.

 

[BetteTheRed]

@Paradox, it's only my perspective, of course, but yes, we have a service that can largely accommodate both traditional believers and non-traditional non-believers, I think, much of the time. I need a Sunday service as a way to ground myself spiritually for the week; otherwise my meditation practice devolves into self-rationalizing tripe, so I'm willing to do some fairly intense metaphorizing as we go in order to cope with it.

There's very little use of the male pronoun to talk about godde, and when there is, She's right up there with Him. "Holy One" is probably the most common. Our preferred bible readings are from The Inclusive Bible, or a progressive paraphrase. We're real careful about hymns and anthems. Probably most important for me, a fairly traditional looking communion comes with nary, ever, a hint of cannibalism. I have never heard "This is my body. This is my blood" from a minister here. There's a group I lead on Tuesday nights that has a membership of 20 or so, many of whom have similarly amorphous non-beliefs, and a couple of whom come from the tiny Unitarian group in this area looking for some casual theological study, coupled with a Sunday service that has a bit of structure that they like. The sermons focus on action, social justice issues, ethical dilemmas. The Prayer of Jesus isn't a weekly feature, and when it appears, there's an attempt to provide paraphrases, different translations, etc.

 

[paradox3]

@BetteTheRed

You sound like more like a "non-traditional believer" than a "non-believer" to me. And you have mentioned on other threads that Jesus is still talked about in your circles.

In my church (which defines as progressive, inclusive and life-affirming) we are in a similar but not identical place, I would say. God is never referred to as He by the minister although the Sunday School co-coordinator sometimes uses this language. We use The Voice version of the bible. The words at communion are "bread for the journey" not the cannibalistic version, although the more traditional words were used on Good Friday.

We have the Lord's Prayer (we still call it that) about once a month. Sometimes traditional , sometimes sung, sometimes paraphrased.

Very different from what is found down the street at West Hill!

Sometimes it seems to me that folks assume they are in a similar theological space to Gretta but they really are not. The post-theists at WHUC would probably not be up for your worship service, from what you have said.

 

[paradox3]

I just want to be clear. I don't want to kick any "heathens" out. I am simply proclaiming the loving God that was and is the cornerstone of this United Church I love so much. If folks want to come and worship with us who do not believe as we do, or do not believe at all, they are not only allowed, they are most welcome. But the United Church of Canada is a Christian faith community that is expressing faith in God, both in our lives and in the world. In it's most recent pastoral letter, praying for the people of the Philippines, our church called on the Eternal Creator. It capitalized Eternal Creator, as in a proper noun, as in a cognitive, living being. That being is God. Our church believes in a living, creator God. It is that living God, the Eternal Creator, our United With God campaign lovingly proclaims.

Officially we believe in a living God. And I do personally.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But I do not believe in anything, P3. God is good-orderly-direction (channelling Linds, but also another well known organization of my acquaintance), the next right thing, the impulse to compassion. I'm absolutely fine with a completely scientific cosmos. I have no belief or even opinion about what happens after death, although one memorable dream suggests to me that everything is okay. I can use the words "holy mystery" to cover most ground. I most emphatically reject a personal interventionalist God. I think humans need to stay in community of some sort, in order to keep themselves a bit more honest. I don't really care if a ski club or a church does it for you; the advantage of the latter is that they'll generally keep an eye on you in your old age, even after your fixed pension means you have very little to contribute financially. I grew up Christian, after the age of 5 anyway, when I was old enough to "take myself to church", because the parents sure weren't taking me. I've always loved English literature, as well, so the Christian mythos is almost embedded in my DNA, so it's easy to be in community, to regulate my personal spirituality, within a Christian context. I have a very small family, most of whom lives in the U.K., and except for my canal-boating cousin, I'm not terribly close to any of them, and I don't have a particularly close relationship with either of my sisters, particularly one of them. So the church is very much my substitute family. Don't need any sort of concept of god or deity to belong. It's also, realistically, my "keep myself busy and active into retirement and old age" strategy. I love Judaism; I'd have aspired to be a cantor if I'd been lucky enough to be born Jewish.

 

[paradox3]

Judaism interests me as well. I just learned of an acquaintance, a long-time Anglican, who has converted to Judaism.