The Rev. Vosper Again

[BetteTheRed]

Lastpointe, I get what you and others are saying. However, this whole review thing has caused me to look at things in a more critical light.

How good a job is a minister doing if they 'allow' an atheist to lead the Faith Formation & Christian Education team? That worries me.

And maybe Gretta and her congregation have the ability to move over to the UUs. However, there are exactly 46 UU congregations in Canada, almost NONE outside of major Metropolitan areas. There's many of us who thought that the UCCan 'served' us. We're not as sure now.

 

[chansen]

@paradox3 This is scary. Why wouldn't they join UU. It seems that Gretta and the co- people

want to pull the strings.

Are you scared of Cruxifusion? They also want to influence the church.

As for the UUs, as Bette points out, they don't have the presence in towns to take in UCCAN people who don't believe. The only option then is the UCCan.

I dont thnk people who are "less believers" are not welcome or wanted.

You mistake the issue of a minister who has a job with a member who attends services


The minister has job obligations with in the denomination. And as the various ministers here have reported some of those job obligations include baptism, communion, sacraments. As a member you can choose to not partake. As a minister within the denomination you dont have that choice. I dont find that unusual. I cant think of another job that has duties as a requirement, that would leave it up to the employee whether they chose to do the assigned duties

Okay, let's break this down. Non-believers are welcome. What they can't have, are leaders who have come to the same conclusion.

This is a definition of "welcome" of which I was not previously aware.

Two people "liked" that post and I have no idea why. It's ridiculous to suggest someone is welcome when you're actively trying to remove the leader they most identify with, simply for agreeing with them.

 

[Lastpointe]

No it is not

Often people join a church or at least start attending to find out more. To figure out if they believe

They are welcome. No one asks why they are there

A minister is different as our various ministers have countlessly outlined. As a job qualification they have committd to doing certain things. Baptisms, sacraments.....

I think you are an engineer. Would you be keen on working with someone who for personal reasons no longer believed in math? That is what we aretalking about. A leader who has a fundamental obligation, under the auspices of their job , to do certain things.

A teacher can t decide they wont teach english, a baker cant decide they dont believe in sugar, a consturction worker cant decide they dont like wood.......

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Well. Youcanbake without sugar and built without wood. And appearently, one could be a UCC minister for 10 years without a theistic God....

 

[chansen]

No it is not

Often people join a church or at least start attending to find out more. To figure out if they believe

They are welcome. No one asks why they are there

A minister is different as our various ministers have countlessly outlined. As a job qualification they have committd to doing certain things. Baptisms, sacraments.....

I think you are an engineer. Would you be keen on working with someone who for personal reasons no longer believed in math? That is what we aretalking about. A leader who has a fundamental obligation, under the auspices of their job , to do certain things.

A teacher can t decide they wont teach english, a baker cant decide they dont believe in sugar, a consturction worker cant decide they dont like wood.......

All those people you want to compare atheists to are denouncing tools of their trades that are demonstrably required. You can't demonstrate the requirements of your faith. You can't demonstrate the existence of your God. You have a club where you want to make belief in something that more and more people find unbelievable, a requirement. And you can absolutely do that. I just think it's short sighted. I think you stand for some good things, but when you place a belief that is ridiculous above all of them, you belittle the good that you stand for.

And I know people will tell me all about how their faith informs their compassion and other such bulls**t. But you don't need faith to care. If you place an untested and assumed faith as the defining requirement for leadership, then members who don't fit that requirement will always be second class members.

That said, in other denominations, they wouldn't even be members. So pat yourselves on the back, I suppose, for allowing second class members instead of denying them outright.

 

[paradox3]

Well. Youcanbake without sugar and built without wood. And appearently, one could be a UCC minister for 10 years without a theistic God....

We don't know yet how this story will play out in the end.

But one thing is for sure. No one will ever be able to say the church acted with haste when it came to making its decision about Gretta Vosper.

 

[Lastpointe]

All those people you want to compare atheists to are denouncing tools of their trades that are demonstrably required. You can't demonstrate the requirements of your faith. You can't demonstrate the existence of your God. You have a club where you want to make belief in something that more and more people find unbelievable, a requirement. And you can absolutely do that. I just think it's short sighted. I think you stand for some good things, but when you place a belief that is ridiculous above all of them, you belittle the good that you stand for.

And I know people will tell me all about how their faith informs their compassion and other such bulls**t. But you don't need faith to care. If you place an untested and assumed faith as the defining requirement for leadership, then members who don't fit that requirement will always be second class members.

That said, in other denominations, they wouldn't even be members. So pat yourselves on the back, I suppose, for allowing second class members instead of denying them outright.

I am not saying that. I am saying that it is a job rquirement. Our posting ministers have outlined sooo many times to you that when they agree to work for Presbytery, they agree to do certain things. You cant just not do them As we all know, she slid by not doing things for a long time.

No one cres whether people sitting in the pews have a variety of beliefs. To join you do have to state you believe in God and his son Jesus..... Forget the exact wording. But to attend, you just go. You could go and sit there and see if it supported you if you chose. But you could not be the minister. That is what we are talking about

I really could care less about her. I think she is a typical media hound. There are lots. The people who need CBC to interview them. She has nothing original to say. As you countlessly point out , atheists are everywhere, a dime a dozen. lets interview someother atheist for a change

 

[paradox3]

Yes, (agreeing with @Lastpointe) we do make a profession of faith to become a full member of the United Church or to transfer formally from one congregation to another. The words I have seen used on these occasions are based on the New Creed and are open to a variety of interpretations. As is the New Creed itself.

Our pews are also filled with many adherents i.e. people who have chosen not to become members but still support the life of the congregation. Most of the time you won't know who is who when you look around you.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is "reason" an essence you-all thingy ... like our understanding in the whole wholly human linguistic system that is complex in overview?

And then they say God is the word ... perhaps an isolated BS!

There is an illustration of two Circe: one containing belief only ... the other with truth only ??????

In the overleaf, or overlap is an ellipsis where knowledge is contained. Funny, that when lashes are applied to the rice shaped overlap ... it takes on the shape of the spaghetti monster on end! A place to place your noodle when having a dark OBI?

In Moses time he receded there in the face of God ... a kind of rocky crevasse (recess in a hard spot, that once gone isn't forgotten). Tis a complex experience ... a passion that drives one to process info coming in from beyond us ...

Consider word complex that includes reason and reasoning ... like con secretion and epistemology ... even philosophy ... is that beyond Gae-eLLe lands where flames dance?

Remember that the next time you sit around a Yule Log ... it may be like opening a journal of the pas eaux ... In Franc tongues like the waters below in Hugo's Paris souerst! Hu ego or not ... as a spring up ... Jacqueline ... or just a jack card as trumping off another collection of strings and threads of a larger fabrication?

Ego; is it not a fete noire ... Black Foot, or Ye-Di? The Shadow moves ... an abstract hue?

 

[chansen]

Yes, (agreeing with @Lastpointe) we do make a profession of faith to become a full member of the United Church or to transfer formally from one congregation to another. The words I have seen used on these occasions are based on the New Creed and are open to a variety of interpretations. As is the New Creed itself.

Our pews are also filled with many adherents i.e. people who have chosen not to become members but still support the life of the congregation. Most of the time you won't know who is who when you look around you.

And you have no idea how many atheists are leading congregations. It's not just Gretta.

And I reiterate that any members you have who identify with Rev. Vosper, who the church is trying to rid themselves of, are second class members. That is not a stretch. They are allowed to contribute, but they are not allowed to lead. Come to think of it, atheists in the UCCan are a lot like women in the FEBCC. You're happy to have them, but you don't necessarily want to hear from them.

It seems your purpose in allowing atheists is to hopefully convert them over time. And when that doesn't happen? Because honestly, you guys suck at explaining why people should believe. You're not alone in you inability, but you are doing worse than most.

And I've never said you guys should go full blown secular. I just think inclisiveness toward disbelief should be an option to explore.

 

[Luce NDs]

Does reason leave an odour to those residing in belief alone without passion ... as the latter is turned to dislike and hate as polity (an extremism)? On should know the word and where IT comes from .. a cognate source? Something to do with rationalism ...

Leaves me with scattered thoughts ... a kind of Q ... want aum experience ...

 

[paradox3]

And you have no idea how many atheists are leading congregations. It's not just Gretta.

Nor do you have any idea how many atheists are leading our congregations. Gretta has claimed there are large numbers of them. Richard Bott's survey suggests there are very few.

 

[paradox3]

And I know people will tell me all about how their faith informs their compassion and other such bulls**t. But you don't need faith to care.

As an atheist, would you say this is something you encounter often in life?

People assume you cannot be compassionate without faith?

It doesn't seem to be the prevalent attitude here on WC2 but I can't speak to your personal experience, of course.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is compassion without faith ... an expression of in determinacy?

Thus there are those of us in the indeterminate host ... that grasp to uncertainty as a place of learning ... some believe not!

 

[crazyheart]

Do Atheists meet Thursday morning somewhere/Or is it an excuse they use . I don't go to church

because I am an atheistWhere do they gather? Even cow breeders meet for a convention.

 

[paradox3]

Atheists gather in a variety of places (Oasis, UU fellowships, Sunday Assembly, humanist groups, etc.) and many of them don't gather anywhere.

I read somewhere that there can be as many nuances to atheism as there are to theism. Interesting to contemplate.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I'd guess MOST of them don't gather anywhere, although there's a lot of people with an interest in social justice in the various service clubs, like Rotary, etc.

 

[chansen]

I think there needs to be a place for those who need the interaction, who have an obvious time on Sunday mornings, who like the structure and social aspects of church, but don't believe. In many ways, you fulfill that role now, whether you want to admit it or not. But you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to close that door.

 

[paradox3]

Interestingly, depending on language and interpretation, Gretta moing to Oasis could mean that effectively she DSL's herself. THere is now a Manual section which states that if a member of the Order of Ministry becomes a clergy person in another denomination (apart from overseas partners, and (I assume) apart from those churches with who we have mutual recognition agreements) the Presbytery is to make a recommendation to Conference that the person be placed on the DSL(Voluntary).

David Shearman has a column in the Owen Sound Sun Times this week making this very point.

You can also see it on his FB page.

 

[revsdd]

Lastpointe, I get what you and others are saying. However, this whole review thing has caused me to look at things in a more critical light.

How good a job is a minister doing if they 'allow' an atheist to lead the Faith Formation & Christian Education team? That worries me.

And maybe Gretta and her congregation have the ability to move over to the UUs. However, there are exactly 46 UU congregations in Canada, almost NONE outside of major Metropolitan areas. There's many of us who thought that the UCCan 'served' us. We're not as sure now.

In United Church polity, the minister doesn't "allow" or "choose" people to lead committees, teams or anything else, so your question is moot.