The growing mess that is Iraq

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BetteTheRed said:
If you expected mainstream Christianity to deal with its extremists, would that be reasonable? Should those of us from more enlightened denoms, hypothetically, be responsible to rein in the fundamentalist U.S. christians who feel compelled to export their homophobia to other (African) nations? I'm afraid that expecting a religion to police itself is a little unreasonable. I would like to see a lot more diplomacy on transparent display at the UN instead of hidden in the back rooms of the powerful.

As horrible as it seems, honestly, I think that after providing a wide clear channel for everyone to escape to safety who can (and the world will never do that, because godde forbid we aid the stranger in need), given that the behaviour of the west is hugely responsible for the mess that parts of the middle east are in now, I think the only thing that can be done is to stand aside and let the people on the ground sort themselves out, all the while trying to dry up the store of weaponry available, and find some channel of communication with someone willing to speak for ISIS/ISIL.
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If that could work, okay. But how do they clear that escape channel non-militarily? Realistically? When US flew helicopters into the mountains to rescue some (not all) Yezidis, they had to fire on the rebels who were firing on them in order to get out of there. It's a very dangerous, and not so simple, situation.
 
I have never once suggested that it was simple. I have suggested that focussing on non-violent interventions are more likely to result in lasting peace, and will never stop arguing that there are always alternatives to violence as long as there are humans willing to imagine it.
 
I have not stopped believing that non violence is a better option always! But these rebels do not believe that and they revere death over respecting life - including their own - so how can you reason with them if they do not believe that non violence is a better option? These men are not part of a national army under central command who can be negotiated with - who can agree on a truce and order them to put their weapons down. They are from all over the place, too. It's them against the infadels for a ticket to heaven. It's not about geo-politics...anymore. How can you negotiate with that?
 
Kimmio, can we go back to some basics here, please? Do you believe that these people are human beings with a set of human needs identical to yours? As long as you keep on 'othering' people and labelling them as irrational, non-violence becomes illusive, because you can't identify with them. Whatever they're doing is rational to them. If, for instance, you'd had your family wiped out by an American drone, how would your definition of "rational" change vis-a-vis what exists right now?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Kimmio, can we go back to some basics here, please? Do you believe that these people are human beings with a set of human needs identical to yours? As long as you keep on 'othering' people and labelling them as irrational, non-violence becomes illusive, because you can't identify with them. Whatever they're doing is rational to them. If, for instance, you'd had your family wiped out by an American drone, how would your definition of "rational" change vis-a-vis what exists right now?
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You don't seem to understand with what I am saying. Don't make me the bad guy for not sticking up for ISIS before the innocent people they are threatening and killing. That is not fair. I don't want for this to be happening at all anywhere. My needs are to live in peace and that all people live in peace. I believe in forgiving others. I understand how unfortunate it that they ended up in this rebel group...people have lost sons and brothers because they did so...but, what I can't get around is this... I understand if they have lost family in war that they would be grieved, angry. That doesn't make it okay to exact revenge for whatever they feel on innocent victims. How do you know their needs are identical to yours/ You assume so. Most peoples' are. But, you are not them and have not been brainwashed by their ideology...if they want to die in violent battle to get to heaven, if that is a need of theirs, then their needs are not identical to mine - I don't identify with that, no. I understand what you are saying. I am othering them perhaps but aren't they othering themselves (or they've been brainwashed into being othered but they still think quite differently)? I suppose you don't believe people can be totally corrupted in their hearts and minds by violent ideology. If these people believe death and killing is preferable because it's a route to heaven- if they believe that at any cost - I cannot identify with that. No, I cannot. I do believe that innocent people who are being killed for no reason at all need to be protected from them first and foremost, and I am not sure how you do that in the heat of violent conflict being perpetrated by them, without military intervention. If you would like to go there and politely ask them to put their guns down orgaqnize a community circle to talk to them about their feelings - if that worked you would be my hero - but something tells me it wouldn't. And something tells me you would never risk it -reasonably so- because you too understand that they are very dangerous.I don't think you would be saying these same things if you were there and feeling threatened by them. Can they be brought back to their original selves- maybe some can...but the time to ask is not while they are busy threatening innocent people in the "now" because it is dangerous and immediate.The best we can do is prevent young men from joining in the first place. As for providing the villagers safe passage..again I do not know how you would do that without military back up. I hate war and violence. I will pray that ISIS has a change of heart but that's all I can do. I have no other ideas at present.
 
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Bette, what about the people they are threatening...I have heard empathy from you for the rebels but not for them. Are you othering them somehow? I don't believe that's your intention...to leave them out of this equation. But, they DON'T revere death and killing. They WANT to be safe from violence.


None of this should be happening at all...but it is so although I wish everyone would just lay down their arms and go home...that is not happening.
 
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I think those violent Muslim extremists are rational people, as rational as violent Christians were, who had good reasons for forced conversions, witch hunts, and persecution, prosecution, torture and execution of "infidels" or "heretics." A "heretic" was everyone who did not agree with their extreme form of Christianity. This "medieval mindset" was once popular in Christian world, and not only in the Middle Ages but far beyond. Violent conquest and violent conversion went hand in hand. European powers conquered not only in the name of king or emperor but also in the name of Christ.

Cultures and religions evolve at a different pace. Much of Islam is still implicated in the mindset that prevailed in Christianity not so long ago.
 
Yep, secularism has neutered Christianity in a way that hasn't happened to Islam in many Islamic countries.
 
Hermann said:
... Violent conquest and violent conversion went hand in hand. European powers conquered not only in the name of king or emperor but also in the name of Christ.

Cultures and religions evolve at a different pace. Much of Islam is still implicated in the mindset that prevailed in Christianity not so long ago.
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Good point, Herm! This discussion reminds me of three things:

1. First, it reminds me that our son, Turner, is married to a Muslim, Farah. 25 years ago--when both were students at York University--they met and married. Turner was a music student https://www.facebook.com/turner.king.750?fref=ts I am happy to say that Farah--now a teacher of English to Muslim immigrants--is a very open-minded Muslim from Tehran, Iran. Their wedding was a Muslim/Christian one in which I participated. Our three grandchildren (all university age--one a graduate, and two now students) have an Iranian mother, and thank GOD, a loving one.

2. Second, since then I have met numerous fine Muslims, mostly from Iran, or from near there. My new neighbour is from Tehran. He also studies English with Farah. And there are many other Muslims in our area of Thornhill. The bottom line is: Cultures and religions can and do evolve.

3. Years ago, I came across a quip in a cartoon, which so impressed me that over the years I have used it more than once. Here it is: Visualize a Christian crusader, standing by his horse, sword in hand and about ready to run the sword through the body of a Muslim soldier lying on the ground with hands raised in a surrender pose.

Then using what English he knew, the un-horsed Muslim said: "Tell me about the message of the Gospels and especially the message of Jesus, the prince of peace. Take all the time you need to take. Read his Sermon on the Mount to me. I AM VERY INTERESTED!" I like to think that this action saved a life--and the soul of the crusader.

Hmmmm! Interesting. I wonder, would if it would work the other way round?

Yes! like the Bible, the Koran also contains many verses about Allah--the one who is all-merciful and who loves to promote the spread of justice and peace.
 
Quotes from both the Bible and the Koran have been used to justify all kinds of evil, but, to my knowledge, neither Jesus nor Mohammed advocated doing bad deeds. And, as you said, God is hailed as just and all-merciful in both the Bible and the Koran. However, there could be passages in the Koran that seem to endorse conversion by fire and sword. And Jesus, when he appeared to them for the final time, was supposed to have said to his disciples: "Go out into the world, and teach all people, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost." This was regarded as a commandment to convert all people to Christianity, and used as an excuse for coercive and sometimes violent conversion.

Although I read some of them, I am not much of a fan of any Holy Book, be it the Vedas, the Bible, or the Koran, particularly not when taken literally. Written words can be misinterpreted and abused, but the living word that is written into our hearts and minds can't. Godness is goodness, and experiencing God in us and around us compels us to do good, by inner impulse, without commandments or holy books, without dogmas or doctrines..
 
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How do we know what moral values God wants us to follow? The common answer is that God speaks to us directly, or gives us special signs, or reveals moral truths in scripture. That approach has limitations even for the most devout believers ... we are suspicious of people who claim that God speaks to them ... scriptural passages lend themselves to countless interpretations. In extreme cases, people have used these rationales to justify horrendous actions, such as genocide. In less extreme cases, claims to be morally guided by God often appear to be thinly veiled attempts to justify one’s private moral biases.

In either case, we typically evaluate the moral validity of such claims by appealing to non-religious standards of morality.

Kant's Philosophy

That God was capable of perfection, and humans were not, so we should not alter or use people as means to an end. God will lead all to perfect happiness if we base universal maxims on what God would desire.

Basically, the "rational, disinterested spectator" could now be God, if God is not an interventionist God and gave everyone complete free will.

This is at odds with Natural Law which leaves space for divine revelation of God's will as it suggests certain humans are connected to God - applicable today if we regard roles such as priests, pastors, royalty and ministers as being able to divinely direct us.

How Kantian Are You?
Think of a modern issue that society is wrestling with.
What answer would you choose below to agree with?
  • The issue if adopted by society does not make a universal maxim.
  • The issue if adopted by society does make a good universal maxim.
 
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BTW, Herm, I sent the following letter to The National Post. Let us see what happens!
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Editor:

Regarding averring ones faith in Islam--mentioned by letter-writer, Mindy G. Alter, Toronto: In my experience all the truly great religions, including Islam, aver life, love, mercy, justice and peace, and the like:

Years ago, I came across a quip in a cartoon, which so impressed me that over the years, as a United Church minister, I have used it more than once--in church and, also, in inter-church public gatherings. Here it is:

Visualize that awful and, in my opinion, shameful period of Christian history, which some call the Great Crusades. Many do not know that all of them were also great failures. Obviously, this should go to show that they were not blessed by any true god of life, love, mercy, justice and peace.

Now see a "Christian" Crusader, standing by his horse, sword in hand and about ready to run it through the body of a Muslim soldier lying on the ground with hands raised in a surrender pose.

Then using what English he knew, the Muslim--having been pushed from his horse to the ground--looked up and said: "Tell me about the wonderful messages of the Gospels and especially the message of Jesus, the prince of peace. Take all the time you need to take. Read his Sermon on the Mount to me. I AM VERY INTERESTED!"

I like to think that this action not only saved the life of a Muslim, but perhaps even the soul of the Crusader.
Hmmmm! Interesting. I wonder, if it would work the other way round?

Yes! The Hebrew and Christian Bibles--respected by many Muslims--contains many verses about the life, love, mercy, justice and peace of God. The Koran also contains many such verses spoken by Allah--the all-merciful, who loves life and the spreading of justice and peace. Let's encourage all the great religions to keep the dialogue about such values an ongoing one.

Using the power of love, let's talk about what we hope to accomplish for our world, which is now in so much pain and suffering and in great need of the healing that mercy, justice and peace will bring.
 
Kimmio said:
I recognize that Isis are not typical moderate Muslims. To solve this problem, moderate peace loving Muslims are crucial.
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Yes, but I don't hear a huge howl of outrage and condemnation coming from the moderate Muslim mainstream. That's why I suspect that most mainstream Muslims are sympathetic with their extremist right wing. It seems that most Muslims are still fundamentalist at heart, as mainstream Christianity was not so long ago. After all, coerced or enforced conversion was still acceptable, even here in Canada, as recently as the 1950ies. Now it is considered a violation of basic human rights.
 
Hi UnDefinitive: You ask: "How do we know what moral values God wants us to follow? The common answer is that God speaks to us directly, or gives us special signs, or reveals moral truths in scripture. That approach has limitations even for the most devout believers ... we are suspicious of people who claim that God speaks to them ... scriptural passages lend themselves to countless interpretations. In extreme cases, people have used these rationales to justify horrendous actions, such as genocide. In less extreme cases, claims to be morally guided by God often appear to be thinly veiled attempts to justify one’s private moral bias."


Yes, true enough, but the fault lies not so much with the mystical experience in itself but with the experiencer's interpretation of the experience.

From my experience, God does not speak to us in human words. The experience of what some of us describe as experiencing God comes without ready interpretation. We, the experiencer, are the subsequent interpreters of the experience, and cannot help but interpret the experience according to our pre-conceived framework of interpretation.

If, for instance, we enter the experience with a pre-conceived belief in a vengeful God, then we are likely to interpret the experience as a revelation of the vengeful God, act at his his chosen agents, and exact vengeance on behalf of God. Cults or fundamentalist denominations or sects frequently abuse mystical experience by initiating a novice into such an experience and then claiming that the experience was God's confirmation of the dogma of that particular sect. The thus converted or confirmed then is likely to commit atrocities in the name of God. Mere indoctrination into the belief in a vengeful God, without mystical experience, can also make one into a devout agent of God's vengeance.

Zen Buddhism, for instance, attempts to get around the interpretive bias by urging its novices to act intuitively and dynamically, directly from the depth of the mystical experience, without using their faculty of logic and thus without using their interpretive framework or bias. The pure experience of reality, from my experience, is almost always of a unitive nature, accompanied by a feeling of universal, unitive love. When we act spontaneously and intuitively, directly from the depth of that experience, then we act in the spirit of unitive love.

It is, however, difficult to keep one's interpretive framework or bias out of the experience entirely. But I urge everyone who attempts to experience pure reality to keep their pre-conceived bias out of the interpretation, and use their innate creativity to create new interpretations. Most of all, I'd urge everyone to delve deeply into the pure experience, as frequently as possible, and take it form there. To delve deeply into the pure experience of reality is easy. All one has to do is abandon oneself to the experience -- unthinkingly! No belief necessary. If one acts spontaneously and dynamically, directly from the depth of the experience, than one can't go too wrong.

No one, not even the most advanced mystic, is beyond the legal or moral code of his society. Those who are, like God, beyond good and evil, do not use this otherworldly stance as an excuse to commit evil.
 
Yes, it's the U.S.'s indiscriminate murder of 'moderate peace-loving Muslims' (a.k.a. 'collateral damage' in a 'war' that they made up based in nothing) that has fuelled the hatred of the west, I suspect, and continued drone bombing isn't helping.
 
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