What Does It Mean To Fall From Grace ?

[Jaebius]

Airclean-- post--
Jae you do ask some of the most left field questions.

Probably. It's my extroverted intuition.

The Jews are a part of the chosen People. They are under the covenant of Abraham, as Believe are we. We are GODS children. We have not the need

to kill our children. We have but" to teach them to bow a knee, to The Lord Jesus Christ". We have but to show them the way ,by our own actions as there Mothers and Fathers.

It would be nice if you would provide a real left field answer, instead of sidestepping like you have above. Let me ask the question again. This time a clear answer from you, which I know you are more than capable of, would be greatly appreciated - if everyone is blameless from sin until the age of 12, would it not be the most loving thing we can do to kill them before they ever reach that age.

 

[Jaebius]

A paradox that can only be explained by "that's what they pay you for".

Systematic theology and pastoral ethics can sometimes guide one in different ways. The day may come, a day God knows I'm not ready for yet, when I'm called to give pastoral care to a couple or individual who have just lost an infant or young child.

 

[Neo]

Systematic theology and pastoral ethics can sometimes guide one in different ways. The day may come, a day God knows I'm not ready for yet, when I'm called to give pastoral care to a couple or individual who have just lost an infant or young child.

Yup, totally understand that. I sure Rev John has been there before.

 

[unsafe]

Neo ----question for you ---What does God consider sin -----when does God impute sin on us ---I am not talking your Religion --I am talking God of the Bible ----

 

[Neo]

Neo ----question for you ---What does God consider sin -----when does God impute sin on us ---I am not talking your Religion --I am talking God of the Bible ----

You want me to answer you with what you believe in the Bible? I'd rather have you just answer where the justice and the love is between the inequity of a child born into a good life where redemption is easily obtained verses a child born into poverty or war with no hope of a good life at all.

 

[Neo]

Neo ----question for you ---What does God consider sin -----when does God impute sin on us ---I am not talking your Religion --I am talking God of the Bible ----

In my understanding, which is what I believe, I'm going to rephrase your questions slightly:

What do we believe God considers sin? Anything that is of form or matter where the Spirit* is not expressing itself.

When did this come about? At the "Coming of Mind", when the Human Soul, Adam Kadmon the Universal Man, fell into generation. It was at this point that awareness in the form of matter first appeared on our Earth. e.g. "their eyes were opened", Genesis 3:7. Esoterism places this event at 18 millions years ago, but it took a long, long time for the animal man to become aware of the inner Spiritual Man. (And we are not there yet!)

* By the word "Spirit" I mean to imply the Sentient Energy or Force that works behind all matter. Scientists talk about the laws of the physical universe, but they rarely talk of the laws of physicality itself. The physical universe, says the ancient wisdom, is itself an Effect of an unseen Cause. e.g. if we think of our 2 dimensional shadow on a sunny day as not knowing or not believing that it has an effectual, but yet unseen, 3 dimensional source, so it is with your 3 dimensional image, which truly is imbued with awareness, as it too is but an Effect of yet another unseen Force emanating from an even higher dimension. In this way (of many ways) are we "born in the image of God".

 

[Waterfall]

Neo ----question for you ---What does God consider sin -----when does God impute sin on us ---I am not talking your Religion --I am talking God of the Bible ----

Which definition of sin are you using?

 

[Jaebius]

Which definition of sin are you using?

 

[blackbelt1961]

I do not understand, God does not impute sin on us

 

[Neo]

I do not understand, God does not impute sin on us

According to the Book of Genesis God set up a no win situation by expecting Adam and Eve to know that it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree that was designed to teach them what was good and what was bad. Therefore God was responsible.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Jesus was raised Jewish. The Torah does not teach that we are born into sin, but rather free will. The doctrine of original sin tends to negate free will in Jewish opinion.

There is a comforting promise immediately after the sin of Adam and Eve that declares that man can master over his lust for sin:
Genesis 4:6-7
"if you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, BUT YOU SHALL MASTER OVER IT.'

Read more here:
http://outreachjudaism.org/original-sin/

That interesting passage is at the heart of Steinbeck's East of Eden. According to his Chinese scholars, that passage could be interpreted three ways:

- Thou shalt master over [sin]- a promise OR
- Do thou master over [sin] - an instruction OR
- Thou mayest master over [sin]- free will

 

[blackbelt1961]

According to the Book of Genesis God set up a no win situation by expecting Adam and Eve to know that it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree that was designed to teach them what was good and what was bad. Therefore God was responsible.

why was it a no win? God walked with Adam, Adam was already in relationship with the Ultimate Knowledge Giver, God. Adam also Knew, because God told him of the 2 sources of knowledge , and gave Adam the free will to choose, Adam made that choice Freely and Adam missed the mark!

Fault is in man not God, God gave the Knowledge , man made the choice , God redeemed man for that Choice

 

[unsafe]

Neo ---your quote from post 57 page3 ----So where is the justice that a child, born in sin, doesn't have to account for any of that sin?

This is why I ask you what you consider to be sin ----when does God charge the sin against us ------Cain murdered his brother did God charge ( impute ) sin to Cain for murdering his brother -----no ---why cause in order to commit a sin you have to transgress a law -----and there was no law on murder at the time Cain murdered his brother ----so God did not charge ---impute--- sin against Cain ----God wasn't happy with him doing what he did but Cain did not commit sin

Romans 5 NKJV
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ask yourself can a infant to a small child ---can children with sever disabilities ---children who are confined to wheelchairs --- transgress a Law -----where there is no law there is no sin imputed -----

We are shaped in iniquity which is the character of the sin -not the sin itself ---and born with a sin nature ----we are not born in sin itself -------to sin is to transgress a law ---the sin requires an action -- the sin nature says we have the nature to sin ----we don't have to sin we choose to sin -----

Iniquity is the character of the sin not the sin itself that is past on from the 3and 4 generation --verse 5 below

Exodus 20New King James Version (NKJV)

The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “IamtheLordyour God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likenessof anythingthatisin heaven above, or thatisin the earth beneath, or thatisin the water under the earth;5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God,am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[Neo]

why was it a no win? God walked with Adam, Adam was already in relationship with the Ultimate Knowledge Giver, God. Adam also Knew, because God told him of the 2 sources of knowledge , and gave Adam the free will to choose, Adam made that choice Freely and Adam missed the mark!

Fault is in man not God, God gave the Knowledge , man made the choice , God redeemed man for that Choice

So his original sin was that he didn't "believe" his God. But again, how was he supposed to know that disbelief was a bad thing if he hadn't taken from the tree of good and evil yet? It must be one of those paradoxes that Pr was talking about.

Or, could there be a different meaning behind this story? Could it be that the fruit represented "matter and form", and the Soul, if were to stay in it's nirvanic state, should have only "observed" the tree. In "consuming" the fruit thereof the symbolic Adam and Eve became attached and part and parcel of the Earth. If this was the "fall into generation" of Adam Kadmon, the Archetypal of Humanity, then this was also the "coming of mind". For choosing between the polar opposites is the discernment of the mind. Also, when one looks at a sine wave, representing the polar opposites in nature, the wave of the serpent becomes visible.

The beginning of Genesis can long be read symbolically if it's to make any real sense. It looses everything when read literally.

 

[Neo]

Neo ---your quote from post 57 page3 ----So where is the justice that a child, born in sin, doesn't have to account for any of that sin?

This is why I ask you what you consider to be sin ----when does God charge the sin against us ------Cain murdered his brother did God charge ( impute ) sin to Cain for murdering his brother -----no ---why cause in order to commit a sin you have to transgress a law -----and there was no law on murder at the time Cain murdered his brother ----so God did not charge ---impute--- sin against Cain ----God wasn't happy with him doing what he did but Cain did not commit sin

Romans 5 NKJV
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ask yourself can a infant to a small child ---can children with sever disabilities ---children who are confined to wheelchairs --- transgress a Law -----where there is no law there is no sin imputed -----

We are shaped in iniquity which is the character of the sin -not the sin itself ---and born with a sin nature ----we are not born in sin itself -------to sin is to transgress a law ---the sin requires an action -- the sin nature says we have the nature to sin ----we don't have to sin we choose to sin -----

Iniquity is the character of the sin not the sin itself that is past on from the 3and 4 generation --verse 5 below

Exodus 20New King James Version (NKJV)

The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “IamtheLordyour God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likenessof anythingthatisin heaven above, or thatisin the earth beneath, or thatisin the water under the earth;5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God,am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

But I still don't see any justice or love in letting so many of "His children" be born into such a sad state when "we" are born with so much opportunity. We are, after all, taking about one kick at the cat, so to speak, for an eternity free from the hell and torture for those post 13 year olds who grew up never "finding" or even looking for Jesus. What would they care in a world that gave them nothing. Must be one those paradoxes I guess.

 

[blackbelt1961]

So his original sin was that he didn't "believe" his God. But again, how was he supposed to know that disbelief was a bad thing if he hadn't taken from the tree of good and evil yet? It must be one of those paradoxes that Pr was talking about.

.

Adam knew because he walked with God he had a relationship with God he knew who God was he knew God was the standard of Perfection because there is nobody other than God , is not as if somebody else could have held those standards there was nobody else God is all there is, God is the ultimate absolute

 

[unsafe]

Neo ------your quote ----But I still don't see any justice or love in letting so many of "His children" be born into such a sad state when "we" are born with so much opportunity. We are, after all, taking about one kick at the cat, so to speak, for an eternity free from the hell and torture for those post 13 year olds who grew up never "finding" or even looking for Jesus. What would they care in a world that gave them nothing. Must be one those paradoxes I guess.

God gave man complete control over this earth Neo ----it is the parents responsibility is to school the child on God -----no one has any excuse about not knowing God ----Man screwed up not God ----your blaming the wrong person Neo -----but even as you blame God His love is there for you --- you are the one rejecting Him ---He is always there for His Creation ---we have turn our backs on Him -----God has been taken out of our schools ---homes ---churches---businesses ----we humans took God out -----and the world is in a mess ----

 

[Neo]

Adam knew because he walked with God he had a relationship with God he knew who God was he knew God was the standard of Perfection because there is nobody other than God , is not as if somebody else could have held those standards there was nobody else God is all there is, God is the ultimate absolute

Apparently he didn't know enough.

You would think God could've seen this coming.

It's like when my kids were young, if we were to leave a bowl of candy on the table and tell them that they could have anything in the room, but don't touch that candy, I would've never have guessed that they would've eaten it when my back was turned.

 

[Waterfall]

That interesting passage is at the heart of Steinbeck's East of Eden. According to his Chinese scholars, that passage could be interpreted three ways:

- Thou shalt master over [sin]- a promise OR
- Do thou master over [sin] - an instruction OR
- Thou mayest master over [sin]- free will

Maybe all of them?

 

[blackbelt1961]

Apparently he didn't know enough

Apparently that is true for all of creation , it cannot be any other way , we do not poses ultimate wisdom & knowledge

You would think God could've seen this coming.

I'm sure God did , thus we have Christ for that reason