What Does It Mean To Fall From Grace ?

[Neo]

Jesus was raised Jewish. The Torah does not teach that we are born into sin, but rather free will. The doctrine of original sin tends to negate free will in Jewish opinion.

There is a comforting promise immediately after the sin of Adam and Eve that declares that man can master over his lust for sin:
Genesis 4:6-7
"if you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, BUT YOU SHALL MASTER OVER IT.'

Read more here:
http://outreachjudaism.org/original-sin/

According to the ancient Indian, the mystic Gnostic and more recently mystic Kabbalah beliefs, all human beings are linked to God by a "Divine Spark". A Spark of Divinity which "acts as a forgotten celestial counterpart to a man's empirical ego". The purpose of life, according to Wiki's description of this Spark, "is to enable the Divine Spark to be released from its captivity in matter and reestablish its connection with or simply return to God who is perceived as being the source of the Divine Light."

"In the Gnostic Christian tradition (e.g. the Valentinian Church, the Cathars, the modern Lectorium Rosicrucianum etc.) Christ is seen as an Avatar of the Light which has taken human form in order to lead humanity back to the Light. The Cathars in particular saw this idea expressed most powerfully in the opening words of the Gospel of St John."

For the Gnostics, the Divine Spark "present in man is entrapped in an evil realm of shadows, which is a close parallel to the Kabbalist's Sitra Achra (the "Other Side"). This spark, in the guise of individual men, is unaware of its true origins, but nevertheless possesses an unconscious desire to return to its divine home. The divine spark thereby constitutes the individual's essential but forgotten reality".

"Like the Kabbalah, several schools within the Hindu-Brahman tradition hold the world to be an illusion (also known as maya) created through a limitation in the infinite 'All'. The non-dualistic Vedanta, for example, particularly as it is expressed by its leading advocate, Sankara (c.788-820) views the world as a total illusion."

"Many of these ideas are also present in the philosophies of India, which generally regard the empirical ego as an illusion enveloping man's true, divine self (Atman)", where Atman is akin to Adam Kadmon, the Primordial Man.

And the awakening and reuniting of this inner, "forgotten reality" occurs, according to the Kabbalists, "only through a person's attaining a deep, abiding, emotional/spiritual knowledge of his true self, and is achievable only when an 'arousal from above' compliments man's own 'arousal from below' ". In other words, it's a two way street of communication between the Soul and It's reflection.

The above quotes were mostly lifted from http://www.newkabbalah.com/Indian.html, but the internet is littered with references to the same concept, and that is that we are divine beings trapped in a world of time and space. And our goal is for Humanity to "conform its behavior to the divine commandments". In other words, for our "empirical self" to become "at-one" with our "spiritual self".

***

The problem I have with the Christian Doctrine of Sin, which was implemented in the form it is today by the Roman Catholic Church, is that because of Adam's transgression, "all men are guilty, under the just wrath and curse of God, and are liable to the pains of hell forever" and that "even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth". In other words, the road to hell is littered with the souls of unbaptised babies and unrelenting sinners. Quotes from http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs03.htm

The Church's Doctrine of Sin is a interpretation and a disambiguation of the original meaning. The Church fathers (and their political backers) had no right, in my opinion, and overstepped the boundaries of interpretation by portratying their assumptions and interpretation into fact. Why would they do such a thing? For control and power of the people by threat of eternal damnation. If they continued to espouse the above ideas regarding a Spark of Divinity then people may not be as submission and therefore less controlled. After all, the Roman Catholic Church was established by the Roman Empire, which was infamous for wanting to control and subvert the people.

It's time for us to wake up and put truth back into religion. It's time for the Western Church to admit that in some areas it may not have been as correct and truthful as it ought to have been. Of course, the Catholic Church has a long history of being attached to the old and outdated concepts. It took them 400 years, for instance, to vindicate Galileo Galilei.

 

[Waterfall]

The problem I have with the Christian Doctrine of Sin, which was implemented in the form it is today by the Roman Catholic Church, is that because of Adam's transgression, "all men are guilty, under the just wrath and curse of God, and are liable to the pains of hell forever" and that "even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth". In other words, the road to hell is littered with the souls of unbaptised babies and unrelenting sinners. Quotes from http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs03.htm

The Church's Doctrine of Sin is a interpretation and a disambiguation of the original meaning. The Church fathers (and their political backers) had no right, in my opinion, and overstepped the boundaries of interpretation by portratying their assumptions and interpretation into fact. Why would they do such a thing? For control and power of the people by threat of eternal damnation. If they continued to espouse the above ideas regarding a Spark of Divinity then people may not be as submission and therefore less controlled. After all, the Roman Catholic Church was established by the Roman Empire, which was infamous for wanting to control and subvert the people.

It's time for us to wake up and put truth back into religion. It's time for the Western Church to admit that in some areas it may not have been as correct and truthful as it ought to have been. Of course, the Catholic Church has a long history of being attached to the old and outdated concepts. It took them 400 years, for instance, to vindicate Galileo Galilei.

Going after doctrines like "original sin", apostolic succession, celibacy of the clergy, non ordination of women, homosexuality, etc.....doesn't go over too well even in this day and age, just ask Hans Kung who was stripped as a Catholic theologian due to his critique of the church and it's doctrines. It appears the church isn't up for scrutiny.

 

[Neo]

Going after doctrines like "original sin", apostolic succession, celibacy of the clergy, non ordination of women, homosexuality, etc.....doesn't go over too well even in this day and age, just ask Hans Kung who was stripped as a Catholic theologian due to his critique of the church and it's doctrines. It appears the church isn't up for scrutiny.

Good thing I'm not a Catholic theologian. It's time for the voice of the people to demand change.

Edit to add: with that said, however, I do like Pope Francis, but I fear that even he can only move so fast in such an established organization.

 

[airclean33]

Hi Neo---I know you didn't write this however I do believe you believe it.

Neo said: ↑
The problem I have with the Christian Doctrine of Sin, which was implemented in the form it is today by the Roman Catholic Church, is that because of Adam's transgression, "all men are guilty, under the just wrath and curse of God, and are liable to the pains of hell forever" and that "even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth". In other words, the road to hell is littered with the souls of unbaptised babies and unrelenting sinners. Quotes from


Airclean--post--How many time's must I tell you to look at what Jews believe.

Jesus Christ The Christian Lord. was born a Jew. He lived under the Jewish Laws. Laws that were given them by GOD. The one for Children finds no sin in what the children do until there 12-13 The sins fall on the parents. Yes the flesh is sinful so had to be controlled. Jesus new this of course and learnt how to obey His Father well in flesh. At 12 He began His Fathers work, as the Word of God States He was fully in control from that time on. God dose not Kill The Children Then. If they die before 12-13-- They have no sin. God will bring them into Heaven then. By The Way Jesus live life , an died with no sin the only person that ever did, before Him , and after Him.. Our GOD Is A Wonderful GOD. All Glory Is His.

 

[chansen]

Hi Neo---I know you didn't write this however I do believe you believe it.

Neo said: ↑
The problem I have with the Christian Doctrine of Sin, which was implemented in the form it is today by the Roman Catholic Church, is that because of Adam's transgression, "all men are guilty, under the just wrath and curse of God, and are liable to the pains of hell forever" and that "even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth". In other words, the road to hell is littered with the souls of unbaptised babies and unrelenting sinners. Quotes from


Airclean--post--How many time's must I tell you to look at what Jews believe.

Jesus Christ The Christian Lord. was born a Jew. He lived under the Jewish Laws. Laws that were given them by GOD. The one for Children finds no sin in what the children do until there 12-13 The sins fall on the parents. Yes the flesh is sinful so had to be controlled. Jesus new this of course and learnt how to obey His Father well in flesh. At 12 He began His Fathers work, as the Word of God States He was fully in control from that time on. God dose not Kill The Children Then. If they die before 12-13-- They have no sin. God will bring them into Heaven then. By The Way Jesus live life , an died with no sin the only person that ever did, before Him , and after Him.. Our GOD Is A Wonderful GOD. All Glory Is His.

How warped do you have to be to believe that crap? Absolutely disgusting.

 

[Jaebius]

How warped do you have to be to believe that crap? Absolutely disgusting.

chansen, I'm struggling with where in the Bible @airclean33 is speaking from, if he is at all. There are followers of Christ who believe in "the age of accountability," though they usually say it's at the age when kids can first distinguish right from wrong, which would be well before 12. I'm not quite sure where airclean is getting 12 from.

A question for you @airclean33 - if hypothetically things are as you say they are, wouldn't the most loving thing we could do be to kill all children before they reach the age of 12? But of course such a notion is absolutely disgusting crap - agreed?

 

[chansen]

Actually, we could merge two absolutely disgusting theologies in this situation, and say that every child, on their 12th birthday, be hit in the head with a baseball bat. Those who die as a result, oh well, God will see them in heaven, and bon voyage. Those who survive the resulting brain injury are likely to have a Near Death Experience that will surely involve God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or one of their close friends, thus cementing their faith in Christianity. If for any reason they wake from their comas without such knowledge, or indeed the moment they speak about seeing Allah (or God forbid any of the Hindu gods), well, that's why you keep that baseball bat in the hospital room.

 

[Neo]

Actually, we could merge two absolutely disgusting theologies in this situation, and say that every child, on their 12th birthday, be hit in the head with a baseball bat. Those who die as a result, oh well, God will see them in heaven, and bon voyage. Those who survive the resulting brain injury are likely to have a Near Death Experience that will surely involve God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or one of their close friends, thus cementing their faith in Christianity. If for any reason they wake from their comas without such knowledge, or indeed the moment they speak about seeing Allah (or God forbid any of the Hindu gods), well, that's why you keep that baseball bat in the hospital room.

So sick ..

 

[Jaebius]

So sick ..

It's appropriate humor given the context.

 

[unsafe]

Neo ---your quote ----It's time for us to wake up and put truth back into religion

In my view --it is time to do away with all religion altogether -----Religion is the worst thing that was born -----Religion divides ----my religion is better than yours ---Oh --you belong to that Religion well that Religion lies -----it binds and divided groups of people by setting their own rules and restrictions -----There is only one God --All these religions say we use this name for the god we follow but it is under the same God you follow -----how ridicules is that ----Jesus was a Jew but when He started His Ministry ---He was very Critical of the practices of church leaders and elders ---He kept the Jewish Customs but not the traditions of the elders and leaders --they added many rituals and man directed traditions that were not included in the Law ----and Jesus let them know what He thought -----one of His sayings that I really like is when He said ---you like to whitewash the outside while the inside remains unclean -----


Matthew 23:27-28New King James Version (NKJV)
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

"Religion"
By Gary Amirault ---http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew1/D1-EtymologyOfReligion.html
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary traces the word back to an old Latin word religio meaning "taboo, restraint." A deeper study discovers the word comes from the two word sre and ligare. Reis a prefix meaning "return," and ligare means "to bind;" in other words, "return to bondage."

 

[airclean33]

chansen, I'm struggling with where in the Bible @airclean33 is speaking from, if he is at all. There are followers of Christ who believe in "the age of accountability," though they usually say it's at the age when kids can first distinguish right from wrong, which would be well before 12. I'm not quite sure where airclean is getting 12 from.

A question for you @airclean33 - if hypothetically things are as you say they are, wouldn't the most loving thing we could do be to kill all children before they reach the age of 12? But of course such a notion is absolutely disgusting crap - agreed?

--Hi Jae --What I posted comes from Gods Word. Some times it comes from GODS Holy Spirit. Unless you have that though, It would be very hard for a person to probably understand. What I just post Jae is from The new Testament.

 

[chansen]

I believe you, AC. I believe the Holy Spirit given you the "why", and I think the Holy Spirit has given me the "how".

What we need now, are a lot of bats.

 

[Neo]

Hi Neo---I know you didn't write this however I do believe you believe it.

Neo said: ↑
The problem I have with the Christian Doctrine of Sin, which was implemented in the form it is today by the Roman Catholic Church, is that because of Adam's transgression, "all men are guilty, under the just wrath and curse of God, and are liable to the pains of hell forever" and that "even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth". In other words, the road to hell is littered with the souls of unbaptised babies and unrelenting sinners. Quotes from


Airclean--post--How many time's must I tell you to look at what Jews believe.

Well I thought that's what I was doing. It appears that Jewish beliefs regarding the Divine Spark was extrapolated from the ancient Indian beliefs. (It could be argued that it's the other way around, however, since both scriptures have never had an official author or publishing date. But I believe that most scholars agree that the ancient Sanskrit of India is one the old languages on Earth)

Jesus Christ The Christian Lord. was born a Jew. He lived under the Jewish Laws. Laws that were given them by GOD. The one for Children finds no sin in what the children do until there 12-13 The sins fall on the parents. Yes the flesh is sinful so had to be controlled. Jesus new this of course and learnt how to obey His Father well in flesh. At 12 He began His Fathers work, as the Word of God States He was fully in control from that time on. God dose not Kill The Children Then. If they die before 12-13-- They have no sin. God will bring them into Heaven then. By The Way Jesus live life , an died with no sin the only person that ever did, before Him , and after Him.. Our GOD Is A Wonderful GOD. All Glory Is His.

So where does the age of "12-13" come from? Are there any scripture that refers to this, or is this just how "you see it"?

 

[unsafe]

interesting article ====

http://www.truthforkids.com/age-of-accountability/#.V5-blPkrLIU

Age of accountability in the Bible

This article has been written with caution and with the acknowledgement that there are things only God knows: the age of accountability of every child is one of them.

What do we mean by the age of accountability? In essence, it is the age at which a child becomes accountable to God and answerable to Him for his or her sin -Matthew 12:36.

We may draw conclusions from the Bible and, based on those, come to some understanding of the factors that come into play, but there are no absolutes to indicate at which point during the formative years of a child the transition to spiritual accountability takes place.
The concept of the age of accountability is based on the belief that a young child is covered by God’s grace until he becomes spiritually aware that he is either defying or resisting God.

This means that children will not be judged for their sin until they reach an age where their conscience has developed to the extent that they have a conviction of being sinful. Children get to know right from wrong by being taught (trained). Consequently, they start to understand the difference between being obedient and disobedient—being good or naughty. But that understanding is different from being aware that they are sinful and spiritually separated from God. A general sense of guilt and conviction of sin only starts to develop in the pre-adolescent years.
When a child has done something wrong, the uncomfortable feeling inside is that of fear rather than guilt. A child is afraid of being found out because of the unpleasant consequences that follow. However, after the matter is dealt with, there is no lingering feeling of guilt, and all is well again.

To see the heart of a child as Jesus sees it, we should heed His words; "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
Jesus was not implying that children are sinless, for, as descendants of Adam, everyone is born in sin(1). Perhaps it is rather that the heart of a young child does not have the capacity to discern good from evil(2)—in some way like the hearts of Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—for by God’s grace, a young heart is cocooned for a time in the simplicity and innocence of childhood. (1)Psalm 51:5, (2) Deuteronomy 1:39,Isaiah 7:15.

The Bible does not identify a specific age at which children become responsible to God for their actions. The Lord has made us unique and knows us better than we know ourselves. He who knows our hearts, knows at what stage each of us is ready to receive the freedom to choose our eternal destiny.

God is holy, but He is also gracious and fair. On that basis, the parents of a child that has died can take comfort in the fact that they will be with their child again one day, even as David stated when his child died (2 Samuel 12:23). This same grace would undoubtedly include unborn babies and those who, through a developmental disability, remain childlike and are unable to understand their sinful state and their need for a Savior.
We may ask, then, “How important is it for young children to receive Christ into their lives?” Children need to hear the Gospel. They need to know that they are sinners and that their sin displeases God. They need to be told that God loves them; that He sent Jesus to earth to take away our sin, and that we should ask Him for forgiveness. Regarding a child’s commitment, we should understand that although the hearts of children may be good, spiritual maturity only develops as they grow older. A preschool child may want Jesus to be her best friend. A few years later, she may understand more about what it means to follow Jesus and formally commit her life to Christ. As a teenager, she may recommit her life to the Lord as the Spirit convicts her of her rebellious attitude. These are stages of growth in faith and understanding, and we should encourage children to respond to the Lord’s call whenever the Spirit touches their hearts (1 Samuel 2:26,3:4).

Although a child may not fully understand what it means to follow the Lord, and perhaps get the words of the prayer wrong, we can leave the issue of their Salvation to the Lord’s infinite wisdom; for ultimately, the simplicity of a child’s relationship with the Lord can be summed up in the words of Peter; “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
To summarize; the Lord will graciously include young children in His family until they reach a point where they have the ability to choose their own destiny. The responsibility of parents is to teach their children about the Lord and to pray with them, and when they reach a point where they want to commit their lives to the Lord, help them to do so (Deuteronomy 11:18-19).

 

[Jaebius]

--Hi Jae --What I posted comes from Gods Word. Some times it comes from GODS Holy Spirit. Unless you have that though, It would be very hard for a person to probably understand. What I just post Jae is from The new Testament.

Interesting airclean. I've read the New Testament all the way through, read parts of it in the original Koine Greek, and studied various sections of it for papers and sermons. Yet I do not understand how what you said comes out of it. Can you please provide the chapters and verses which suggest these things to you. Thanks in advance.

 

[Waterfall]

By The Way Jesus live life , an died with no sin the only person that ever did, before Him , and after Him

I take it you're not Catholic, because they believe Jesus mother never sinned either.

 

[Neo]

1. interesting article ====

http://www.truthforkids.com/age-of-accountability/#.V5-blPkrLIU

Age of accountability in the Bible

This article has been written with caution and with the acknowledgement that there are things only God knows: the age of accountability of every child is one of them.

What do we mean by the age of accountability? In essence, it is the age at which a child becomes accountable to God and answerable to Him for his or her sin -Matthew 12:36.

We may draw conclusions from the Bible and, based on those, come to some understanding of the factors that come into play, but there are no absolutes to indicate at which point during the formative years of a child the transition to spiritual accountability takes place.
The concept of the age of accountability is based on the belief that a young child is covered by God’s grace until he becomes spiritually aware that he is either defying or resisting God.

This means that children will not be judged for their sin until they reach an age where their conscience has developed to the extent that they have a conviction of being sinful. Children get to know right from wrong by being taught (trained). Consequently, they start to understand the difference between being obedient and disobedient—being good or naughty. But that understanding is different from being aware that they are sinful and spiritually separated from God. A general sense of guilt and conviction of sin only starts to develop in the pre-adolescent years.
When a child has done something wrong, the uncomfortable feeling inside is that of fear rather than guilt. A child is afraid of being found out because of the unpleasant consequences that follow. However, after the matter is dealt with, there is no lingering feeling of guilt, and all is well again.

To see the heart of a child as Jesus sees it, we should heed His words; "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
Jesus was not implying that children are sinless, for, as descendants of Adam, everyone is born in sin(1). Perhaps it is rather that the heart of a young child does not have the capacity to discern good from evil(2)—in some way like the hearts of Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—for by God’s grace, a young heart is cocooned for a time in the simplicity and innocence of childhood. (1)Psalm 51:5, (2) Deuteronomy 1:39,Isaiah 7:15.

The Bible does not identify a specific age at which children become responsible to God for their actions. The Lord has made us unique and knows us better than we know ourselves. He who knows our hearts, knows at what stage each of us is ready to receive the freedom to choose our eternal destiny.

God is holy, but He is also gracious and fair. On that basis, the parents of a child that has died can take comfort in the fact that they will be with their child again one day, even as David stated when his child died (2 Samuel 12:23). This same grace would undoubtedly include unborn babies and those who, through a developmental disability, remain childlike and are unable to understand their sinful state and their need for a Savior.
We may ask, then, “How important is it for young children to receive Christ into their lives?” Children need to hear the Gospel. They need to know that they are sinners and that their sin displeases God. They need to be told that God loves them; that He sent Jesus to earth to take away our sin, and that we should ask Him for forgiveness. Regarding a child’s commitment, we should understand that although the hearts of children may be good, spiritual maturity only develops as they grow older. A preschool child may want Jesus to be her best friend. A few years later, she may understand more about what it means to follow Jesus and formally commit her life to Christ. As a teenager, she may recommit her life to the Lord as the Spirit convicts her of her rebellious attitude. These are stages of growth in faith and understanding, and we should encourage children to respond to the Lord’s call whenever the Spirit touches their hearts (1 Samuel 2:26,3:4).

Although a child may not fully understand what it means to follow the Lord, and perhaps get the words of the prayer wrong, we can leave the issue of their Salvation to the Lord’s infinite wisdom; for ultimately, the simplicity of a child’s relationship with the Lord can be summed up in the words of Peter; “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
To summarize; the Lord will graciously include young children in His family until they reach a point where they have the ability to choose their own destiny. The responsibility of parents is to teach their children about the Lord and to pray with them, and when they reach a point where they want to commit their lives to the Lord, help them to do so (Deuteronomy 11:18-19).

This whole need to define an "Age of Accountability" highlights another anomaly with the idea of being "born a sinner".

So where is the justice that a child, born in sin, doesn't have to account for any of that sin? Why does this child of 11 not have to learn how to control his or her thoughts and actions, thus somehow evading the sufferings of the slings and arrows of daily life? And for that matter, why are some born with a greater chance of redemption than others? Where is the justice and where is the love? I don't see either when comparing a child born of an affluent, white Christian family in the west, against a poverty stricken child born into a world with little or no hope at all.

The problem with the Christian Doctrines is that they refuses to accept the Laws of Reinarnation, which are very closely related to the great Law of Cause and Effect. Because of this Christians need to squirm their way out by intruding even more complex doctrine. Or they just call it ... what did PR call it the other day... "a paradox that humans can't understand".

 

[Jaebius]

Theologically, while I respect those who believe in the age of accountability, I myself do not. However, when it comes to ministering as a pastor, I absolutely do believe in it.

 

[airclean33]

Jae Posted--
A question for you @@airclean33 - if hypothetically things are as you say they are, wouldn't the most loving thing we could do be to kill all children before they reach the age of 12? But of course such a notion is absolutely disgusting crap - agreed?

Airclean-- post--
Jae you do ask some of the most left field questions. The Jews are a part of the chosen People. They are under the covenant of Abraham, as Believe are we. We are GODS children. We have not the need to kill our children. We have but" to teach them to bow a knee, to The Lord Jesus Christ". We have but to show them the way ,by our own actions as there Mothers and Fathers.

 

[Neo]

Theologically, while I respect those who believe in the age of accountability, I myself do not. However, when it comes to ministering as a pastor, I absolutely do believe in it.

A paradox that can only be explained by "that's what they pay you for".