The Rev. Vosper Again

[revjohn]

LOL, it wasn't unsettled before. It was unsettled 10 years ago, but not now.

You have completely missed the point.

Any congregation where the pastoral relationship has ended in a way other than a happy mutual agreement between the minister and the congregation is unsettled. There is a great deal of anger that will be directed at the parties deemed responsible for the pastoral relationship being dismantled. The incoming minister will be considered a threat to supporters of the former minister and will take a great deal of flack while attempting to build their own relationship with the congregation.

The sort of minister the congregation will want, will not meet the approval of Presbytery.

That is quite the assumption. And if it has been proven that Presbytery/Conference is actually hostile to West Hill that would be news to me.

The likely result is West Hill United will fold. Gretta will probably soldier on either by herself or join the UUs. The review will essentially be for Gretta and her congregation. If you DSL the former, the latter is DOA.

I forget how much you actually know about this kind of thing.

Sometimes congregations will fold sometimes they do not.

A local congregation here lost a beloved minister in the fallout from 1988 discussions. They survived for 17 years afterwards and quite frankly they could have survived much longer had they not constantly groused about how painful that was.

If West Hill is, as a congregation, viable then they are viable no matter who the minister is. If they are only viable with this minister or that minister then one day when they decide to move on or retire or, God forbid, become seriously ill then the congregation is at risk.

It is understandable that West Hill will be unhappy if the Reverend Vosper is placed on the DSL.

We have a minister here in Erie who is suspended and waiting for a legal trial. The review process will be automatic for him once the Trial has been completed.due to the nature of his charges. He has since retired but is retained on roll. At some point he will be reviewed and the result of that review may be placing him on the DSL.

His congregation will continue without him. In fact, they have been continueing without him for nearly two years now. This particular minister was, once upon a time, thought to be the pre-eminent United Church minister in the Presbytery. And there are members of the congregation who still believe that the allegations against him cannot be true.

Even if a new ministry is in place when the Trial happens that will be difficult on the Congregation.

Another congregation just North of Brantford had a treasurer disappear and it became a hugely controversial event. He murdered a man, assumed the dead man's identity and claimed that his daughter (the Treasurer's daughter was his wife. That congregation has never healed from that and he was not the clergy person. That congregation experiences huge trust issues. They still soldier on.

So it is possible for congregations to survive huge crises including having their minister forcibly removed by action of Presbytery.

 

[revjohn]

I don't find the graphic to be very appropriate for such a sensitive matter.

You may celebrate the decision but there will be people who are terribly hurt because of it. Your lack of self-discipline is akin to twisting the knife that they have been stabbed with.

I have no quarrel with the comment I sincerely wish you would remove the graphic simply out of courtesy to others who will not be celebrating.

If you had taken advantage of attending Toronto Conference AGM last year you would have heard, at least once, instruction from the chair that delegates not clap, cheer or jeer points made that we support or oppose. I listened to some of the discussion via the live stream so I know that even when I disagreed with points raised the loving response would have been to counter error gently or remain politely silent.

 

[Jaebius]

You may celebrate the decision but there will be people who are terribly hurt because of it. Your lack of self-discipline is akin to twisting the knife that they have been stabbed with.

Let them post a graphic of being in dismay/disappointment, whatever. I choose to celebrate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

If you had taken advantage of attending Toronto Conference AGM last year you would have heard, at least once, instruction from the chair that delegates not clap, cheer or jeer points made that we support or oppose. I listened to some of the discussion via the live stream so I know that even when I disagreed with points raised the loving response would have been to counter error gently or remain politely silent.

Okay. We're not at Toronto Conference AGM here.

 

[GordW]

Let them post a graphic of being in dismay/disappointment, whatever. I choose to celebrate, and there's nothing wrong with that.



Okay. We're not at Toronto Conference AGM here.

I think you are intentionally missing the point. Christian Ethics compels us to live in certain ways. How we react in times of controversy and conflict is to be based on mutual respect for those with whom we agree and those with whom we disagree. Dancing in triumph is not exactly respectful

 

[Jaebius]

I think you are intentionally missing the point. Christian Ethics compels us to live in certain ways. How we react in times of controversy and conflict is to be based on mutual respect for those with whom we agree and those with whom we disagree. Dancing in triumph is not exactly respectful

"Be full of joy all the time. Never stop praying. In everything give thanks. This is what God wants you to do because of Christ Jesus" - 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 (NLV).

 

[Mendalla]

Let them post a graphic of being in dismay/disappointment, whatever. I choose to celebrate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Then I hope you won't mind if some of us post the exact same graphic the next time a Fellowship Baptist pastor or congregation is in hot water.

Frankly, celebrating the problems of another denomination is bad taste at its worst.

 

[Jaebius]

Then I hope you won't mind if some of us post the exact same graphic the next time a Fellowship Baptist pastor or congregation is in hot water.

The next time a Fellowship Baptist pastor is going to be investigated for going about admitting to be an atheist - including on national media - be my guest.

 

[crazyheart]

Pr.Jae, I hope you hone your pastoral care skills because they are seriously

lacking. You hurt more than you help and act like a fool. God forgive you.

 

[revsdd]

The first thing that will happen is that there will be a formal declaration that a vacancy exists and several options exist to fill that vacancy. An appointment of some kind will be made by Presbytery.

Not necessarily. A formal vacancy is only declared if a congregation is deemed ready to enter the Search process. I suspect that there's a good chance that Presbytery or Conference or whoever's doing this job now in Toronto Conference would require that in the circumstances West Hill receive a formal Interim Ministry appointment. No vacancy has to be declared for that. In fact there can't be a vacancy declared if there's a decision to go to Interim Ministry. The congregation is simply considered without a settled minister, but not technically vacant because they're not considered ready to form a JSC and proceed with a search.

 

[revjohn]

I defer to you Pastoral Relations prowess.

 

[chansen]

Not necessarily. A formal vacancy is only declared if a congregation is deemed ready to enter the Search process. I suspect that there's a good chance that Presbytery or Conference or whoever's doing this job now in Toronto Conference would require that in the circumstances West Hill receive a formal Interim Ministry appointment. No vacancy has to be declared for that. In fact there can't be a vacancy declared if there's a decision to go to Interim Ministry. The congregation is simply considered without a settled minister, but not technically vacant because they're not considered ready to form a JSC and proceed with a search.

So if I'm reading correctly, you suspect West Hill would get a minister appointed to them from Presbytery or Conference, correct? Is this because it would be assumed they are not in "essential agreement" themselves, and therefore no committee formed from members of the congregation and the Presbytery/Conference would come to an agreement?

 

[revsdd]

So if I'm reading correctly, you suspect West Hill would get a minister appointed to them from Presbytery or Conference, correct? Is this because it would be assumed they are not in "essential agreement" themselves, and therefore no committee formed from members of the congregation and the Presbytery/Conference would come to an agreement?

Congregations don't have to be in "essential agreement." They have to govern themselves according to United Church polity and be in apparently healthy condition. Grounds for reviewing a pastoral charge would be that it is felt that the congregation is not in a satisfactory state. That could mean an improper method of governance, ongoing and escalating conflict, financial mismanagement, etc.

An Interim Minister is a specially trained minister. Interim Ministers are appointed in special circumstances where it is felt that the congregation needs help moving on. Reasons for interim ministry could be the end of an unusually long ministry where it's felt the congregation needs a time of separation from the previous minister before they can call a replacement, a congregation with a significant pattern of unhealthy conflict, a congregation on the verge of closing who need someone to guide them (sort of palliative care for congregations) or an unexpected and traumatic end to a pastoral relationship (criminal charge against the minister, the death of the minister.) I would think that a decision to remove a minister that the congregation didn't want removed (combined with past conflict over theological direction) would warrant Interim Ministry. An Interim Minister is appointed to a specific (commonly two years in my experience) term and is not allowed to apply for the call when a vacancy is finally declared. Thus they have both job security and no reason to curry favour, so they can identify and name issues. Interim Ministry is intended as a helpful ministry although it is sometimes seen by congregations (incorrectly) as punitive. I expect West Hill would see it as punitive.

 

[crazyheart]

I have seen where interim ministers have made matters worse.

 

[revsdd]

I have seen where interim ministers have made matters worse.

So have I. As in all other aspects of life, some interim ministers are better than others. Some are downright bad. Some are very gifted for certain situations (like helping a congregation with the grief over a long term minister leaving) but they get appointed to deal with a situation they-re not particularly giften in (like dealing with conflict.)

 

[Luce NDs]

However in deferment to Christian Ethics ... no cynicism is allowed and thus we don't know when the greater other (paradigmatic) is pained by the song and dance of absolutes ...

Thus some of us sing and dan's on the other side of facetiae ... just to support irony that the institutionalized won't accept as the real carrier of intellectual doings ... as knowing is biblically evil ... thus we are condemned to being stunned ... happens with impact with energy ... an "erg" or two? Perhaps erg ane that much be phonetically expressed as Anne going Ba'aListic ... and she got the breach ... of the gun!

Appears as nothing to look into ... a poke can wake it ... from the somnolent state ... sometimes all it takes is a word of polity ... an extreme issue of incomprehension?

Too late they're intu IT!

 

[Jaebius]

However in deferment to Christian Ethics ... no cynicism is allowed and thus we don't know when the greater other (paradigmatic) is pained by the song and dance of absolutes ...

Thus some of us sing and dan's on the other side of facetiae ... just to support irony that the institutionalized won't accept as the real carrier of intellectual doings ... as knowing is biblically evil ... thus we are condemned to being stunned ... happens with impact with energy ... an "erg" or two? Perhaps erg ane that much be phonetically expressed as Anne going Ba'aListic ... and she got the breach ... of the gun!

Appears as nothing to look into ... a poke can wake it ... from the somnolent state ... sometimes all it takes is a word of polity ... an extreme issue of incomprehension?

Too late they're intu IT!

I sand in the morning when the world ice begun, and I damsel the cars and the moon and the fun. When I'm happy I sanders con and celebrate no matter who may want to poopoo that.

 

[Luce NDs]

Expect po' back the ass of reflection as backsliding ... will return you to the last chord, or final string ... then you're cut off as another outlier! Social behaviour? We don't know how ... as stated in the antisocial bible on human knowledge ... we're not supposed to know ... thus naïveté was created ... but it's just another word ... they tend to go on ...

 

[chansen]

Congregations don't have to be in "essential agreement." They have to govern themselves according to United Church polity and be in apparently healthy condition. Grounds for reviewing a pastoral charge would be that it is felt that the congregation is not in a satisfactory state. That could mean an improper method of governance, ongoing and escalating conflict, financial mismanagement, etc.

I'm not suggesting the congregation has to be in essential agreement. I'm just suggesting they are not. I'm not sure how anyone could argue Gretta is not in essential agreement, but her congregation, who have written about their support of Rev. Vosper, is.

An Interim Minister is a specially trained minister. Interim Ministers are appointed in special circumstances where it is felt that the congregation needs help moving on. Reasons for interim ministry could be the end of an unusually long ministry where it's felt the congregation needs a time of separation from the previous minister before they can call a replacement, a congregation with a significant pattern of unhealthy conflict, a congregation on the verge of closing who need someone to guide them (sort of palliative care for congregations) or an unexpected and traumatic end to a pastoral relationship (criminal charge against the minister, the death of the minister.) I would think that a decision to remove a minister that the congregation didn't want removed (combined with past conflict over theological direction) would warrant Interim Ministry. An Interim Minister is appointed to a specific (commonly two years in my experience) term and is not allowed to apply for the call when a vacancy is finally declared. Thus they have both job security and no reason to curry favour, so they can identify and name issues. Interim Ministry is intended as a helpful ministry although it is sometimes seen by congregations (incorrectly) as punitive. I expect West Hill would see it as punitive.

I would expect West Hill would see the removal of Rev. Vosper as punitive. I would expect West Hill would view any interim minister appointed to them as incredibly anachronistic.

 

[Mendalla]

I would expect West Hill would view any interim minister appointed to them as incredibly anachronistic.

I expect so, too. OTOH, as someone in a purely congregational church, I sometimes look at something like that and go "that's not a bug, that's a feature." I can think of at least one occasion in my church where having a higher court of the church able to step in would not have been a bad thing. We did finally muddle through it ourselves, but I think we are still feeling the effects and an outside agency with the power to do something instead of just "consult" or "mediate" might have been a good thing at that time and have mitigated some of the damage (if 'twere done well; as pointed out in another post, if done badly, it could cause more damage).

 

[Luce NDs]

Bugs, features and attributes ... something that goes along with isolated social order in real life ... like sometimes hard to imagine people can act that way under the 2-way scheme of Christianity requiring justice both ways ...

There has to be another side to the one way created out of nothing ... not a thought attached ... thus mindless instead of a soul-like phyla-pine ... some words may have changed to hide the innocent!

Tis the way with anything enlightening in the world of heavies ... often hidden in di goes ...