Muslims & Christians: Same God?

[Luce NDs]

People do not act the way they believe because of confusion ... due to being disturbed by emotional shocks of some kind!

Some call this emotional impact a spiritual situation ... if you have one many church goers will avoid you ...

Just tell them you had an OBI and watch the gaps open ...

 

[GeoFee]

"Isn't it interesting that this is always a fault of others?" John

This short phrase has had me well occupied since first reading. What puzzles me is the word "fault". Raised in a Calvinist household and community, educated in a Calvinist school, this word carries signification which troubles me. The whole division of what is correct and what is not correct by the opinion of persons deeply divided in allegiance and commitment. This forum being a microcosm of the pattern.

I learned much in my mother's kitchen. She was a compassionate and gifted care giver in a well ordered household. This though her husband was a reprobate Calvinist and adamantly determined to go his own way. To the hurt of his household as well as himself.

Mother taught me to notice. This gift made me a competent and compassionate provider of intimate supportive care for elderly gentlemen experiencing chronic or terminal illnesses (12 years). It also allows me to suggest, in agreement with some forty years of adult experience in a great diversity of contexts, that many persons and associations of persons experience anxiety in the face of change which they do not manage. This is not a failure or a fault. It is a presenting issue for which there is remedy.

How many in Christendom would abdicate all bias and allegiance to the ideologies of liberal democracy under the auspices of capitalism, to embrace an undivided allegiance to the opportunity revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit?

Or a little closer to home: "How many in the western world now see the writing on the wall and yet continue in the refusal of change in the hope of remedy?"

Jesus offers the sign of Jonah for our consideration. Entrusted with a word of warning he, by a circuitous route, comes to the city of Nineveh. There he pronounces the word. The word is heard in the place of authority and an edict is proclaimed, calling all person to abstain from all superfluous activity.

This is the Jesus we see holding nothing back in the interest of self preservation in face of the powers and principalities of the day. There is no hint of compromise for advantage along the way. No accommodation to the governing norms and standards of the time and place.

"Follow me" invites each who hears and sees to step out. A change only a small number ever makes though many entertain the prospect.

Thanks for spurring me to reflection.

George

 

[Neo]

I always enjoy your "reflections" George.

You ask, probably rhetorically but I'll answer anyways, "how many in the western world now see the writing on the wall and yet continue in the refusal of change in the hope of remedy?"
Many, it would seem. Some many simply don't care (with eyes closed), some feel that it's futile to even try and others have more alegence to institution and organizations than their own heart.

 

[Luce NDs]

"Isn't it interesting that this is always a fault of others?" John

This short phrase has had me well occupied since first reading. What puzzles me is the word "fault". Raised in a Calvinist household and community, educated in a Calvinist school, this word carries signification which troubles me. The whole division of what is correct and what is not correct by the opinion of persons deeply divided in allegiance and commitment. This forum being a microcosm of the pattern.

I learned much in my mother's kitchen. She was a compassionate and gifted care giver in a well ordered household. This though her husband was a reprobate Calvinist and adamantly determined to go his own way. To the hurt of his household as well as himself.

Mother taught me to notice. This gift made me a competent and compassionate provider of intimate supportive care for elderly gentlemen experiencing chronic or terminal illnesses (12 years). It also allows me to suggest, in agreement with some forty years of adult experience in a great diversity of contexts, that many persons and associations of persons experience anxiety in the face of change which they do not manage. This is not a failure or a fault. It is a presenting issue for which there is remedy.

How many in Christendom would abdicate all bias and allegiance to the ideologies of liberal democracy under the auspices of capitalism, to embrace an undivided allegiance to the opportunity revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit?

Or a little closer to home: "How many in the western world now see the writing on the wall and yet continue in the refusal of change in the hope of remedy?"

Jesus offers the sign of Jonah for our consideration. Entrusted with a word of warning he, by a circuitous route, comes to the city of Nineveh. There he pronounces the word. The word is heard in the place of authority and an edict is proclaimed, calling all person to abstain from all superfluous activity.

This is the Jesus we see holding nothing back in the interest of self preservation in face of the powers and principalities of the day. There is no hint of compromise for advantage along the way. No accommodation to the governing norms and standards of the time and place.

"Follow me" invites each who hears and sees to step out. A change only a small number ever makes though many entertain the prospect.

Thanks for spurring me to reflection.

George

Are faults not existent as literary rifts? Or is that a thought or knowledge prohibited out side the one way bible? How is it the bible speaks commonly (John-like) of other books in great piles? Stacked ethics as compared to pooled morals ... toadies tools?
Some in determinates/abstracts/imaginary space required to put it in ...

Is that beyond fixation?

 

[airclean33]

I always enjoy your "reflections" George.

You ask, probably rhetorically but I'll answer anyways, "how many in the western world now see the writing on the wall and yet continue in the refusal of change in the hope of remedy?"
Many, it would seem. Some many simply don't care (with eyes closed), some feel that it's futile to even try and others have more alegence to institution and organizations than their own heart.

--Hi Neo--So you to see the writing on the wall too. Although I believe you do not see it the same as I do. Those who have been teaching God's word the wrong way". There time will soon be up. The Lord Jesus is coming back very soon. He will give them payment, for what they have done. Many Christian church's do not preach the testament of GOD . They teach the idea's of man. Thank GOD there are yet a few who still teach and walk with GOD. There are still many who truly believe ,to which GOD has said come out of there my children. Those house that still walk with GOD , are easy to find . They preach Jesus The Christ is The Way to the Father GOD, who loves you'. They kneel to The Lord Jesus Christ and honor His Fathers Word. They are GODS chosen and will live for ever more.

 

[Jaebius]

In Chapter 7, Volf discusses issues concerning the oneness of God and the Trinity.

He begins by identifying tawhid (the Islamic concept of God's oneness) as being the key issue for Muslims disputing the Christian view of God. According to Volf, many Muslims do not see the Christian concept of the Trinity as upholding the truth of there being but one God. Thus, he says, they believe that Christians are, at best, worshiping one true God and two idols in addition to God. Says Volf, this is to Muslims shirk, the unforgivable sin of associating other beings with God.

Indeed, Volf writes that many sophisticated Muslim religious scholars suspect that Christians aren’t true monotheists. It is their perception, he suggests, that Christians affirm one God while at the same time insisting that there are three divine Persons, each worthy of worship.

Obedient to the Qur’an, Volf writes, Muslims, it seems, must reject what Christians appear to affirm: that God has a son, that other gods should be joined to God, that God is one of the three divine beings, and that it is appropriate to worship those other beings in addition to God. From this vantage point, he says, it looks as if Christians worship false gods.

Thus, Volf offers this basic rule for Christians as they speak about God with Muslims: “Never divide divine essence.” He states that Christians must not break this rule when talking with Muslims about God as the Holy Trinity.

The Christian creeds and the great Christian teachers, he says, reject dividing the divine essence no less adamantly than Muslims do.

In addition to stating clearly that there is only one “numerically” identical divine essence, Volf writes, Christians should note that the “Persons” are tied and intertwined together in a most intimate manner, more intimate than any relation between creatures could ever be.

In sum, Volf writes with regard to God’s unity...

1. Christians deny what Muslims deny. And together with Muslims they can say there is “no god but God” (Muhammad, 47:19), because the first of the Ten Commandments says, “You shall have no other gods before me” (Exod. 20:3).

2. Together with Muslims, Christians can say, “God is one and only” (Al Ikhlas, 112:1), because Jesus, echoing the Jewish Shema, affirmed that “the Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Mark 12:29).

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

 

[Geo]

A quote from Christian teacher Timothy Keller:

"I was once invited to be the Christian representative in a panel discussion at a local college along with a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim imam. The panelists were asked to discuss the differences among religions. The conversation was courteous, intelligent, and respectful in tone. Each speaker affirmed that there were significant, irreconcilable differences between the major faiths. A case in point was the person of Jesus. We all agreed on the statement:

"If Christians are right about Jesus being God, then Muslims and Jews fail in a serious way to love God as God really is, but if Muslims and Jews are right that Jesus is not God but rather a teacher or prophet, then Christians fail in a serious way to love God as God really is."

The bottom line was - we couldn't all be equally right about the nature of God.

 

[revjohn]

Hello Geo, welcome back.

Staying long or is this just a drive by?

The bottom line was - we couldn't all be equally right about the nature of God.

While true it doesn't mean that we cannot be addressing the same reality in partial measures. Which is my struggle above.

When the Jew talks about the God revealed to them through the Torah, are they describing the same God who may/may not have revealed God's self to the Muslim through the Koran or the God who revealed God's self through Jesus and the writings of the New Testament?

Jesus is a distinction. Of no real importance to the Jew and of less importance to the Muslim than the Christian.

At the same time Jesus, for the Christian, is not the whole of God. We Christians can talk about the Father without mentioning the Son or the Holy Spirit.

It is probably in the first person of the Trinity that Christianity experiences the most similarity with the Jew and the Muslim.

Which makes the conversation one of a great deal of nuance and not one of absolutes.

 

[Luce NDs]

If god is a great mystery would it be best in understanding to take in context multiple perspectives of the grand mystery?

The mystery does resolve one grand human wish though ... that to not know ...

Perhaps as a host we should be concerned about what we wish for instead of what's quietly thought ... especially wrought-in form when they mystery is like a dark pool! Plenty bloody inkin' rite?

 

[revjohn]

If god is a great mystery

If? We know far less about God than we know about God. I expect that there is a lot of mystery still waiting to be examined.

would it be best in understanding to take in context multiple perspectives of the grand mystery?

Multiple perspectives potentially provide a greater picture. Sort of like the proverb of many blind men describing an elephant. What the proverb fails to consider is that we don't always know who is blind nor do we know that all who are blind and offering descriptions of what is are groping the same thing.

The blind description of an elephant makes sense to us because we are sighted enough to know what an elephant looks like in the whole.

If we were blind, listening to the blind description and one was actually holding on to a koala or a giraffe how would we know they aren't actually describing an elephant?

Perhaps as a host we should be concerned about what we wish for instead of what's quietly thought ... especially wrought-in form when they mystery is like a dark pool! Plenty bloody inkin' rite?

That is a hard lesson to master.

 

[Luce NDs]

If? We know far less about God than we know about God. I expect that there is a lot of mystery still waiting to be examined.



Multiple perspectives potentially provide a greater picture. Sort of like the proverb of many blind men describing an elephant. What the proverb fails to consider is that we don't always know who is blind nor do we know that all who are blind and offering descriptions of what is are groping the same thing.

The blind description of an elephant makes sense to us because we are sighted enough to know what an elephant looks like in the whole.

If we were blind, listening to the blind description and one was actually holding on to a koala or a giraffe how would we know they aren't actually describing an elephant?



That is a hard lesson to master.

You're evolving as a gem stone in the dark john ... sort of like the rest of us commoners trying to put together the larger thing that those with the avarice believe they have in the box ... but they don't know much about that cat!

I get this image of Jody Foster falling in the unknown for 18 minutes and the authorities arguing that it isn't rite ...

 

[Geo]

Hey John,

I don't believe Keller is making the issue one of absolutes. However, this is not to say that the message loses any importance.

The issue of whether the Christian God and Allah are one in the same is less important, for me anyways. According to Christ and Muhummad, what we believe about Christ himself is what determines whether or not we can know God, or spend time with Him in eternity. For Muslims, considering Christ's claims to divinity as valid would be to commit the grievous sin of "shirk". According to Christians, denying Christ's claims to divinity makes it impossible to know God.

Many people do not wish to acknowledge this contradiction - either because they are unaware of it, or because it is too uncomfortable, since IF either side happens to be right in reality at day's end, the other is wrong.

 

[Luce NDs]

Authorities need something rigid to hang onto in a world that spins about them ... really causing them vert egos ...

Cautious of them green eyes ... you'll know when they're sic over yah!

 

[revjohn]

I don't believe Keller is making the issue one of absolutes. However, this is not to say that the message loses any importance.

Maybe he isn't. It won't be long until somebody does.

According to Christians, denying Christ's claims to divinity makes it impossible to know God.

That looks like an absolute to me, does it not look absolute to you?

As a Christian myself I think that the absolute misses nuance. I would probably say, and I am fully aware that I am offering an absolute in exchange, that what would be impossible is to know the fullness of God while denying Christ's claims to divinity. Not that those who accept Christ's claims of divinity have completely grasped the fullness of God.

Many people do not wish to acknowledge this contradiction - either because they are unaware of it, or because it is too uncomfortable, since IF either side happens to be right in reality at day's end, the other is wrong.

This presumes that one claim must be right while the other claim must be wrong. I think that there is a possibilty that both claims might be incomplete and to some degree mistaken. While I agree that God is known by many names I have never been convinced that God is known by every name.

Personal bias suggests to me that Christians have a leg up in the knowing God department because of Jesus. Personal bias is not strong enough for me to believe that Christians know all that there is to know about God.

 

[Luce NDs]

Are nuances a problem for those looking for big things and get rich quick schemes (conspiracies unseen)? There are no such sacred conspiracies right!

 

[Geo]

revjohn,

Were Jesus or his followers that wrote the New Testament "nuanced" in the way you would like to see, regarding claims surrounding who he was?

 

[GordW]

Given that the church has always said some variation on "Jesus is God" but has never (as far as I can remember) said "God is Jesus" I think that brings out the nuance that John refers to.

 

[revjohn]

Were Jesus or his followers that wrote the New Testament "nuanced" in the way you would like to see, regarding claims surrounding who he was?

I would say so.

Neither Paul nor Peter, thought that the Jews were a complete write-off. Paul goes to great lengths to suggest that the covenant God struck with Israel would stand forever and did not rely on them acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ let alone God incarnate.

It is true that he had harsh words to say about the Jewish/Christian contingents insistence on circumcision. Paul maintains that salvation is a gift of God making it contingent upon God's graciousness and God's will more than anything you or I might do.

I don't know if the same holds true for Islam since it is a later element than Judaism and Christianity and as such never directly addressed.

Unless when Jesus claims to have "sheep not of this pasture" he is referring to folk who believe in God without believing as Christians do.

GordW brings up an interesting angle.

We Trinitarians insist that Jesus is God the Son and not God the Father. Can we know God the Father without God the Son? The Jews appeared to for centuries or will we insist now that they never knew God and God never revealed himself to them prior to the birth of Christ?

 

[GeoFee]

Nothing like a conversation about who is right and who is wrong. With the bias generally being we (I) are right and others (you) are wrong. This is pertinent not only to the question of Muslim, Jewish or Christian bias but also within the whole spectrum of persons and communities who call on the name of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

If our God is different from the others we ought to ask how that difference is made manifest. For me the God who inspires and authorizes Jesus by the Holy Spirit has no interest in being top dog when the pack assembles to establish priority and prominence. Rather, God in Jesus by the Holy Spirit seems more at home in loving service to those excluded by temple functionaries and elites than in those temples; whether in Mecca, Jerusalem or your home town.

George