The Second Sign (John 4: 46-54)

[paradox3]

As I read the last few posts here, one question that comes to my mind is, 'If I weren't already a Christian, would this passage help convince me to become one?' I'm not so sure they would. I get the impression that John's gospel was written for an 'inside' group, people who were already convinced, as sort of a confirmation guide to articulate what they already believed.

Was John attempting to draw it all together into a cohesive theology? And maybe give the other gospels a stronger spiritual foundation?

Would this have increased the people's commitment to Jesus and to their faith community?

 

[paradox3]

And what is the place of John's Gospel today? The lectionary assigns Matthew, Luke and Mark to years A, B and C.

Selections from John are added in from time to time.

I am definitely less familiar with the Fourth Gospel. A few well known passages would be the exception.

 

[Mendalla]

As I read the last few posts here, one question that comes to my mind is, 'If I weren't already a Christian, would this passage help convince me to become one?' I'm not so sure they would. I get the impression that John's gospel was written for an 'inside' group, people who were already convinced, as sort of a confirmation guide to articulate what they already believed.

That seems plausible. Not selling Jesus so much as selling what they believe about Jesus.

Was John attempting to draw it all together into a cohesive theology? And maybe give the other gospels a stronger spiritual foundation?

Yes to the former, not sure so sure the latter. Perhaps more to draw all the various accounts of Jesus into a single vision of who he was? Maybe the first Christology?

Would this have increased the people's commitment to Jesus and to their faith community?

Perhaps. I might have also increased the cohesiveness of the community by making that all those commitments were to a common vision of Jesus rather than to Jesus but with differing ideas of what that meant.

 

[Luce NDs]

And what is the place of John's Gospel today? The lectionary assigns Matthew, Luke and Mark to years A, B and C.

Selections from John are added in from time to time.

I am definitely less familiar with the Fourth Gospel. A few well known passages would be the exception.

I repeat as stated prior: I have had several theologians tell me that they dislike doing sermons from the GOJ as it is too spooky!

Can this be a result of fear of essences, spirits, etc. as a hypothesis that hasn't been investigated into the huge array of stories that are beyond the prior indication ... as perhaps paranormal. There is controversy about such telekinesis, or clairvoyance as it suggests something of activity going on parallel to absolute physical domains as if in a abstract, intangible zone!

Imagine, such things as transported into a dense psyche! Like words being converted to thoughts or vice versa as if in a nebulous structure that up there beyond or in a para world! Is a para world subtle because of those denying the mental process ... something considered as thought? I picture Papa Abner (biblical character) in stovepipe gear, maybe a Lincoln Hat! He tried to steer Lil Abner clear of that fair bombshell. The Ner/Nar failed as is usual in the redneck game of head loss!

Let us just release it as excess words illegitimately set free as a myth (story, legend) to counterfire unexamined lies! Thus powerful counter texts are bifurcated in a divine struggle for co opting ... free choice to take sides clear of either emotion or intellect in the function of logy! Root of pathology! Sometimes an alien feeling ... honoring pah Theos! The father of figuring? Let us cypher on that ...

Tis an Ares game ... transfer of disposed thoughts that were turned over in a deep, dark domain. The enigma; recovery ... of whether we can ever heal from an emotional blow-up? Exponential reckoning ...

Is Christology a light of initial Logi .... somewhat unreasoned or unraveled? First carved into a tree ... for lack of a place to store icons? Some traditions laid all their past connections there ... or hanged eM! Thus "dang ET" from the dangling of suspended processes! Animation ...

Come on oh Din ... provide claire voyance (from the word voyeur, searcher, or looker)! Is a looker subjective, or objective?

Tis a booty of a concept with exceptions ...

 

[Waterfall]

I think John's message was different than the synoptic gospels, they focused on the kingdom to come and John focused on Jesus as the devine word or the Logos that is with God or is God.
Basically John establishes the relationship between Devine and human. This can happen to anyone in whom God dwells and can make us all "sons of God".
John says,"Yet to all who received Him, to all who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God."
John's stories of the seven miracles dont point toward the significance of the miracles but the spiritual element of them. So John focuses not on the Kingdom of heaven but the transformation of peoples lives.
So the miracle of the wine is meant to show the contrast between the old and the new.
For John the physical feeding of the five thousand is not as important as the spiritual nourishment they are receiving that characterizes the true followers of Jesus.
Jesus says, " I am the bread of life".
When he heals the blind man from birth, the rabbi asks if the man sinned or his parents that caused the blindness. Jesus says neither, but it happened so Gods power would be displayed in his life.
John wants us to understand Jesus mission is to help the spiritually blind.
Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is what happens when they are spiritually awakened and receptive to the power of God.
Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. "He that believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me, will never die".
Looking at the miracles this way doesnt require scientific proof or historicity, just understanding.

 

[Luce NDs]

I think John's message was different than the synoptic gospels, they focused on the kingdom to come and John focused on Jesus as the devine word or the Logos that is with God or is God.
Basically John establishes the relationship between Devine and human. This can happen to anyone in whom God dwells and can make us all "sons of God".
John says,"Yet to all who received Him, to all who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God."
John's stories of the seven miracles dont point toward the significance of the miracles but the spiritual element of them. So John focuses not on the Kingdom of heaven but the transformation of peoples lives.
So the miracle of the wine is meant to show the contrast between the old and the new.
For John the physical feeding of the five thousand is not as important as the spiritual nourishment they are receiving that characterizes the true followers of Jesus.
Jesus says, " I am the bread of life".
When he heals the blind man from birth, the rabbi asks if the man sinned or his parents that caused the blindness. Jesus says neither, but it happened so Gods power would be displayed in his life.
John wants us to understand Jesus mission is to help the spiritually blind.
Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is what happens when they are spiritually awakened and receptive to the power of God.
Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. "He that believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me, will never die".
Looking at the miracles this way doesnt require scientific proof or historicity, just understanding.

Sort of indicates those still stuck in the ancient darkness ... and can't move ... blind tuits needing to be a WOKE! There is hesitation to self examination according to that statement my Amon: "know thine's elf!" and "do no harm' unless faced with naivete ... then you might take a turn --- revelations ... evolving chimera!

 

[Mystic]

I see here a group of UCCans or ex-UCCans who reject anecdotes of divine healing simply because their churches experience no such anecdotes from their members. So the counter-evidence of the Gospels and modern Charismatics must be blindly dismissed as "unconvincing" to duck the charge that they champion an inept spirituality with no supernatural power. What gets lost in this defensive closed-mindedness is their rejection of the lofty expectations gf both Jesus and Paul for normative Christian power spirituality:

"I tell you the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these because I am going to my Father (John 14:12)."
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their POWER. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on POWER (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

What also gets lost is their unwillingness to meet the biblical conditions for experiencing this power. Jesus, His brother James, and Paul provide instructions on the conditions of effective faith and petitionary prayer (John 15:7; Mark 11:22-25; Matthew 6:6-8; James 1:6-8; 4:2-3; 5:14-16; Philippians 4;6, 13). Jesus spends hours in private prayer to empower His ministry (e. g. Mark 1:35; 6:46; 14:39; Matthew 14:23; Luke 5:16; 6:12; 9:28; 11:1; 22:41).

I have shared my family's experience of Rev. Hart's healing ministry. Like Jesus in the healing of the royal official's son, Rev. Hart didn't need to pray for physical infirmities; he just used "the word of knowledge" to single them out of the crowd and pronounced them healed. In this way Rev. Hart healed my mother's calcium deposits in her shoulder and my brother's kidney problems. And what was the secret of Rev. Hart's success? He followed Jesus' example of spending hours in daily earnest prayer--a condition that progressives are unwilling to meet. So he stunned his audience at the end of his meeting when he confessed: "These will be my last healing meetings. It takes several hours of prayer a day to keep my healing gift active and I'm getting too old to pay the draining price of all those daily hours in prayer."

In the healing of the royal official's son, Jesus knows what is happening at a distance. Similarly, after Rev. Hart's service, my Mom pursued him in the parking lot. Rev. Hart turned and said, "Lady, you're worried about your son (me!) back in the States; you think he's becoming too liberal." Then he paused to listen for God's Word about what was happening at a distance in my life. He smiled and said, "Well, your son will be OK; so don't worry about it."
Now I don't try to convince progressives to apply biblical principles to faith any more than I imagine I can convince Flat Earthers that the Apollo moon landings were not faked in a New Mexico hanger. But I do want to expose their rejection of the biblical model of effective prayer and faith and make it clear that this is why their denomination is experiencing steep decline, while global Pentecostalism has exploded to 600 million members. These Pentecostals thrive in an atmosphere of constant demonstrations of divine power (as per 1 Corinthians 2:4-5). As famed sociologist Peter Berger notes, what is important is that THEY believe this is happening according to the NT pattern.

 

[paradox3]

@Mystic
After reading your long post above, I see very little mention of the BPoTW we are actually studying on this thread. There is one brief reference to it I think.

I see insults being lobbed our way. You speak of us blindly dismissing certain things; championing inept spirituality; and demonstrating defensive closed- mindedness.

Once again, your use of the word "progressives" comes across as provocative. How many of us identify as progressive Christians here? I, for one, do not.

Unless I am misreading your comments (always possible) you seem almost gleeful about declining numbers in the denominations.

You speak of Pentecostal growth.

Why not start a thread on this topic?

Please leave this thread for John 4: 46-54 and related discussion. Many thanks.

 

[Mendalla]

@Mystic, I am a moderator in this specific forum, and I do have the power to ban you from the thread. However, I prefer, and choose, not to. You've contributed some great stuff in BPoTW threads and I would like to see that continue. But the snark is really beneath you and I hope we can keep this thread on topic rather than indulge in that kind of lowest common denominator mudslinging. Please and thank you.

 

[paradox3]

We read in John's Gospel that Jesus did many miraculous things. John wants us to see these signs and believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Say we accept the signs. Now we have Jesus as a miracle worker. And we are curious. Do we conclude, as Nicodemus did, that Jesus must a teacher who has come from God?

This is exactly where Nicodemus was when he approached Jesus under the cover of darkness.

How do we make the leap to believing Jesus is the son of God? What did John think in the first century? What do you think today?

John has upped the ante from the synoptic gospels. If the people have and heard and accepted the first three gospels they will have certain views of Jesus:

Jewish mystic and reformer
Ethical teacher
Apocalyptic preacher
Healer

Perhaps they are now grappling with the resurrection and what it means.

 

[paradox3]

John will get to the events of Holy Week. Some of the details will vary from the synoptics.

The entire Fourth Gospel is not about signs and Jesus's statements concerning himself.

 

[jimkenney12]

I repeat as stated prior: I have had several theologians tell me that they dislike doing sermons from the GOJ as it is too spooky!

Can this be a result of fear of essences, spirits, etc. as a hypothesis that hasn't been investigated200 years ago today, 5 Mar 1819: John Peyton & his party captured Demasduit (Mary March) at Red Indian Lake, now known as Beothuk Lake. During her capture, Demasduit's husband Nonosbawsut was killed. I bet your teacher didn't tell you that in school. I didn't learn this back in grade 6 in 1962 for sure. Here's hoping this has changed. Good time to start a conversation about changing the name of the mountain in central Newfoundland named after Beothuk killer John Peyton #reconciliation matters.!

Imagine, such things as transported into a dense psyche! Like words being converted to thoughts or vice versa as if in a nebulous structure that up there beyond or in a para world! Is a para world subtle because of those denying the mental process ... something considered as thought? I picture Papa Abner (biblical character) in stovepipe gear, maybe a Lincoln Hat! He tried to steer Lil Abner clear of that fair bombshell. The Ner/Nar failed as is usual in the redneck game of head loss!

Let us just release it as excess words illegitimately set free as a myth (story, legend) to counterfire unexamined lies! Thus powerful counter texts are bifurcated in a divine struggle for co opting ... free choice to take sides clear of either emotion or intellect in the function of logy! Root of pathology! Sometimes an alien feeling ... honoring pah Theos! The father of figuring? Let us cypher on that ...

Tis an Ares game ... transfer of disposed thoughts that were turned over in a deep, dark domain. The enigma; recovery ... of whether we can ever heal from an emotional blow-up? Exponential reckoning ...

Is Christology a light of initial Logi .... somewhat unreasoned or unraveled? First carved into a tree ... for lack of a place to store icons? Some traditions laid all their past connections there ... or hanged eM! Thus "dang ET" from the dangling of suspended processes! Animation ...

Come on oh Din ... provide claire voyance (from the word voyeur, searcher, or looker)! Is a looker subjective, or objective?

Tis a booty of a concept with exceptions ...

Some or many preachers want to dissect biblical passages like a frog in a biology lab, identifying the roles of all the parts and explaining how they are connected. Others like to celebrate the mystery and wonders of a biblical passage like a teacher showing awe at the capacities of the living frog from spending winters buried in the mud to eating prey larger than them. The theologians you identify seem afraid of the living word. Like all great literature, the words in the Bible can have a life of their own.

 

[jimkenney12]

I see here a group of UCCans or ex-UCCans who reject anecdotes of divine healing simply because their churches experience no such anecdotes from their members. So the counter-evidence of the Gospels and modern Charismatics must be blindly dismissed as "unconvincing" to duck the charge that they champion an inept spirituality with no supernatural power. What gets lost in this defensive closed-mindedness is their rejection of the lofty expectations gf both Jesus and Paul for normative Christian power spirituality:

"I tell you the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these because I am going to my Father (John 14:12)."
"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their POWER. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on POWER (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

What also gets lost is their unwillingness to meet the biblical conditions for experiencing this power. Jesus, His brother James, and Paul provide instructions on the conditions of effective faith and petitionary prayer (John 15:7; Mark 11:22-25; Matthew 6:6-8; James 1:6-8; 4:2-3; 5:14-16; Philippians 4;6, 13). Jesus spends hours in private prayer to empower His ministry (e. g. Mark 1:35; 6:46; 14:39; Matthew 14:23; Luke 5:16; 6:12; 9:28; 11:1; 22:41).

I have shared my family's experience of Rev. Hart's healing ministry. Like Jesus in the healing of the royal official's son, Rev. Hart didn't need to pray for physical infirmities; he just used "the word of knowledge" to single them out of the crowd and pronounced them healed. In this way Rev. Hart healed my mother's calcium deposits in her shoulder and my brother's kidney problems. And what was the secret of Rev. Hart's success? He followed Jesus' example of spending hours in daily earnest prayer--a condition that progressives are unwilling to meet. So he stunned his audience at the end of his meeting when he confessed: "These will be my last healing meetings. It takes several hours of prayer a day to keep my healing gift active and I'm getting too old to pay the draining price of all those daily hours in prayer."

In the healing of the royal official's son, Jesus knows what is happening at a distance. Similarly, after Rev. Hart's service, my Mom pursued him in the parking lot. Rev. Hart turned and said, "Lady, you're worried about your son (me!) back in the States; you think he's becoming too liberal." Then he paused to listen for God's Word about what was happening at a distance in my life. He smiled and said, "Well, your son will be OK; so don't worry about it."
Now I don't try to convince progressives to apply biblical principles to faith any more than I imagine I can convince Flat Earthers that the Apollo moon landings were not faked in a New Mexico hanger. But I do want to expose their rejection of the biblical model of effective prayer and faith and make it clear that this is why their denomination is experiencing steep decline, while global Pentecostalism has exploded to 600 million members. These Pentecostals thrive in an atmosphere of constant demonstrations of divine power (as per 1 Corinthians 2:4-5). As famed sociologist Peter Berger notes, what is important is that THEY believe this is happening according to the NT pattern.

I am not sure where you read in this thread that ministers were rejecting the healing stories. Most of the discussion has been about the meaning or point of each story. I hope you are willing to use different lenses when reading threads like this.

I also wonder why the historical truthfulness of these passages is so important to someone whose faith is rooted in spiritual experiences.

 

[Luce NDs]

This discussion as anecdote within a metaphor could be taken as real or poor rendition of what happened initially ... which comes to mind as the paradox of the enigma in the first place ... assuming there is an opposing position to a human kind as a holding up the posterior part. Thus the thread could take off i many vectors as freedom of choice allows the viruses to be exposed and the myth is thus spread as an uncertain virtue that many are determinate about while lacking reason thereof.

This poses as need for protocol by those that reject lo' Geez as it evolves through Logi and getting into the bones of the story ... that actually is so forgotten as to become an eternal bottom end ... albeit spontaneous to rise ... rarely grasped in blind functions that are focussed on something else like physicallity and thus loss of all thought in a sigh'n ...

There that's dissected ... as des emanation goes, des appointed as senses are dulled in physical activities? Why some absolutes have and abstract side that comes to mind as ripper ... and the dash is on ... hyperbolical speak (allows avoiding the truth with the stoic; that believe they got that which was vastly unknown). Thus that great out there all alone ... a rheumy story that will open up ... if you trouble yourself to do sow! As ceded? Well bitten ...

When caught stripping down, rye, people will say whatever to save their ass from being caught lying outright thus the counterpoints ... the pain of learning as psychotic empathy? Very mysterious ... many are found to be apathetic and say there is nothing to it! Look into that ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Were initialized soles things that go on and on forever with some unseen evolution to cover what they found distasteful in bipartisan reproduction ... thus algae as queer indication of asexuality ... determined not to be accepted either ... denting the dissatisfaction of humanity --- this is found in philosophy of nihilistic character ... au naturel? Respect the ancient mother nature ... it died in the broad that became picky about offspring ... unappreciated input?

So much for the stoned peter and the opposing pieta ... and peas Pi ... as seeded reason, rationale! Milking the myth for extraction of logic ... impossible if it get excessively emotional ... the levity goes out of it ... seriously. Maybe as ceros fluid that completes bloody cycles of endogeneity as it circulates ... stuff from the hollow of bones as they head up ... diabolically, spore ... no single minded ness there ... aids the arguement that should be dis gust ... bit windy for hum us sake ... thus we dig ... regardless of those determined they have it all together ... when in virtue they are just Eire ...

 

[paradox3]

Oops. Just posted something on the wrong thread

 

[Luce NDs]

Oops. Just posted something on the wrong thread

Can such Eire happen? Thus things like humans appear ... the heavenly flawed? Expect cracks and giggles ... some will come back at yah ... thus the BaKa Shaw ... shorn just in time ...