A bible question

[Mendalla]

In the "JOKE OR NO JOKE" thread in Relationships, @Jae cited Job 31:1 as part of what governs his sexual morality vis a vis things like porn.

I note with interest how different translations handle that passage. Some say "virgin" and some say "young woman" or "maid" or "girl". These are not the same thing in English so I wonder what the Hebrew is and what would be the literal translation?

For instance:

NRSV says:

“I have made a covenant with my eyes;
how then could I look upon a virgin?

NIV says:

“I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a young woman.

And so on for other versions. I'm asking this in R&F so as not to derail the thread.

 

[Mendalla]

To broaden it a bit, when Bible versions conflict or at least give different understandings of a passage, what do you do? How do you decide what it is really saying?

 

[KayTheCurler]

personally, I find the various translations more confusing than helpful. In this case I wonder what the 'rules' would be for a woman, Is a woman not to look lustfully on another woman - a man - a handsome man? The words seem to objectify women (to me) .

 

[unsafe]

This is the Hebrew word used in Job 31:1--


Job 31:1►
Text Analysis
StrTranslitHebrewEnglishMorph
1285[e]bə-rîṯבְּ֭רִיתa covenantNoun
3772[e]kā-rat-tîכָּרַ֣תִּיI madeVerb
5869[e]lə-‘ê-nāy;לְעֵינָ֑יwith my eyesNoun
4100[e]ū-māhוּמָ֥הthen whyPro
995[e]’eṯ-bō-w-nên,אֶ֝תְבּוֹנֵ֗ןshould I thinkVerb
5921[e]‘al-עַל־onPrep
1330[e]bə-ṯū-lāh.בְּתוּלָֽה׃at a virginNoun
Hebrew Texts

There are 3 different words used --all mean the same thing -----

Job 31:1►
Parallel Strong's
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I have madea covenant with my eyes. Howthencould I lookat a young woman?   

New American Standard Bible
"I have madea covenantwith my eyes;Howthen could I gazeat a virgin?

King James Bible
I madea covenantwith mine eyes;why then should I think upon a maid?


this word bə-ṯū-lāh. ----1330. bethulah ---maidens (1), virgin (32), virgins (17).


there is also another Hebrew word which is used in scripture ----for virgin

5959. almah ----Definition
a young woman, a virgin

NASB Translation
girl (1), maid (1), maiden (1), maidens (3), virgin (1).


Mendalla----your quote ----Bible versions conflict or at least give different understandings of a passage

The Bible never conflicts and it doesn't give different understandings of a passage ------there are different Hebrew words but both mean the same thing -----a virgin can be a maiden ---a girl ---a young woman all mean a virgin ----

What does the word virgin mean in the Bible?

Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות, in Arabic Amah آمه which means unspecified woman or a woman past puberty, regardless of sexual status) is a Hebrew word meaninga young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be (butdoesnot have to be) an unmarried virgin or a married young woman.

 

[Mendalla]

Okay, so to be clear, in Job 31:1, bethuleh is used, which does mean the same thing as virgin (i.e. has not had sex) in English?

But almah, which is also used in other places in the Bible, means a woman who has not had a child, not necessarily one who has not had sex?

The Bible never conflicts and it doesn't give different understandings of a passage

Never said it did. I said that different translations/versions give different understandings. Regrettably, most of us don't have the luxury of reading it in the original languages so we have to deal with the vagaries of translation, which you have outlined quite nicely here. Thank you.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ---your quote ---Thank you.


Your welcome

 

[Jaebius]

https://gotquestions.org/covenant-eyes.html

 

[Luce NDs]

Is bi*bli*os loaded with conflicting metaphors as a word device? Then there are those that say allowing a woman or other minority power to become literary is a sin ... for then they might learn something.

Thus the command for silence ... and one should not talk to a woman it the pit head ... of the mine 'd ah? The mystery is thus allowed to proceed ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Mendalla: Yes Almah means woman or man depending on whether it is in it's masculine or feminine form. That has had sex previously.

Yet Matthew makes the mistake of quoting Isaiah 7:14 in Matt 1:23 and using Bethulah whereas Isiaah uses Almah.
And we know the word Almah does not mean virgin in any shape or form. From Proverbs 30:18 Where Solomon explains what exactly is an Almah.

 

[Luce NDs]

Can you imagine a Jude'n sort having dialogue, or intercourse at the watering hole with a Sam Eire 'n woman?

And God didn't make Honky Tonk Women? As offshoot it was illegal to teach women and minor factions of society literary skills ... thus they diminish above (ad minist era shun) too! Do you suppose Matthew 'n was carved accountant ... separated from the a' priori log of what was past? This was registered on the great wall ... an institution to some ...

 

[GordW]

Mendalla: Yes Almah means woman or man depending on whether it is in it's masculine or feminine form. That has had sex previously.

Yet Matthew makes the mistake of quoting Isaiah 7:14 in Matt 1:23 and using Bethulah whereas Isiaah uses Almah.
And we know the word Almah does not mean virgin in any shape or form. From Proverbs 30:18 Where Solomon explains what exactly is an Almah.

Actually it is often thought that Matthew was following the Septuagint (Greek translation) in this choice (apart from the obvious theological point he was trying to make)

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Actually it is often thought that Matthew was following the Septuagint (Greek translation) in this choice (apart from the obvious theological point he was trying to make)

Irrelevant. If Matthew was using the Septuagint. It just shows it was poorly translated from the Hebrew, so the problem still remains.

 

[Luce NDs]

One does need to know a pile of strange words to interpret this context ... then many are terrified of strange literary forms like satyrs and hyperbolic satires .. and some are left Allah Gory by Syriac derived terms ...

 

[GordW]

There is a story that Martin Luther challenged anyone to show him where almah was used to denote a non-virgin as he was defending the literal-ness of the virgin birth.

 

[Luce NDs]

There is a story that Martin Luther challenged anyone to show him where almah was used to denote a non-virgin as he was defending the literal-ness of the virgin birth.

Would certain doubts be entertained according to the tome as taken literally as bilious with wiles?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

There is a story that Martin Luther challenged anyone to show him where almah was used to denote a non-virgin as he was defending the literal-ness of the virgin birth.

Did he know the Hebrew language better than any Hebrew speaking rabbi. Then he would know better wouldn't he. (sarcasm)

As said he only would have to ask a rabbi and read proverbs 30:18 Solomon makes it clear what almah is. There is no mistaking that for a virgin.

 

[revsdd]

Almah is a broad word that generally speaking means a young, unmarried woman. Whether she's had sex or not is largely irrelevant, although I would argue that the moral norm in that society would be that an almah was expected to be a virgin. As Gord points out, it's the Septuagint (which was translated by Jewish scholars) who chose the Greek word "parthenos" as the translation of "almah." Parthenos does mean "virgin." Since the Septuagint was translated by Jewish scholars, then it must be possible for Jewish scholars and rabbis to believe that Isaiah 7:14 is referring, in context, to a virgin.

I've heard various suggestions supporting the "virgin" translation. One is the context argument - that since Isaiah 7:14 is referring to a "sign" it's not that much of a sign if a young woman who's not a virgin has a child. That happens on a regular basis. Another is that the Jewish insistence that "almah" means "young woman" and not "virgin" is a response to Christian teaching but doesn't pre-date Christian teaching. In other words, that translation is deliberately preferred by Jewish scholars today as a way of countering Christian teaching, but before Jesus there would have been a much more open mind (evidenced by the Septuagint translation.)

In favour of "young woman" is simply common usage, which although I said "simply" is actually a powerful argument.

For myself, the "literal-ness" of the virgin birth is less important than what the account points to - that Jesus' origins were unique.

 

[revjohn]

I note with interest how different translations handle that passage. Some say "virgin" and some say "young woman" or "maid" or "girl". These are not the same.

Red herring.

The crux of the passage would be the covenant made with one's eyes and not if one is selective in who they were eyeing.

Translators have options. Knowing which Hebrew word and which is the most litural translation doesn't much impact upon Jae's interpretation.

If Jae was saying porn is okay so long as it isn't of virgins then the literal translation would be a red herring to the passage and such a selective interpretation would be more an abuse of scripture than fair use of it.

The covenant with the eyes is no looking. Specifically no looking at anyone I am not married to. And more specifically no leering at other women.

Think about Trump having a similar covenant with his hands. There would be much less outrage and fewer women stating that his talk is more pragmatic than theoretic.

The best translations will always be more accurate. Less accurate isn't automatically untrue.

 

[BetteTheRed]

That Jesus can have developed as a unique person doesn't necessitate for me a unique birth. I have known people who have far surpassed the fate you might have anticipated for them knowing their parents; I have seen the children of exceptional people fall seriously short.

 

[revsdd]

That Jesus can have developed as a unique person doesn't necessitate for me a unique birth.

Nor did I say that it did. Here we get into the question of interpretation. What I said essentially was that the virgin birth story can be read metaphorically as a way of saying that Jesus is special and in a unique relationship with God, unlike the relationship any of the rest of us have with God.

As to the virgin birth accounts, they can be read either literally - Jesus really was born of a virgin - or metaphorically - the author writes a story to make a point about Jesus. Only those who were there at the time can know for certain which is the case. For the rest of us it's a matter of faith and interpretation.