Gen Z is Leading Church Attendance

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I guess…forgive God because we made him into this? An all loving and merciful God doesn’t require forgiveness. But maybe a God who set humans up, knowing we’d get to this place if he’s all knowing and we’re not, and he’s keeping score - does? Or maybe just unconditional love and some dedicated and caring rehabilitation. Forgive everyone, including God. Then start a new chapter.

Sounds blasphemous. But think about it - if he wrote the book knowing he created us to screw up, elect dictators, and move ourselves into another war - whose fault is it? Obviously it’s “ours” (to varying degrees) but if we don’t actually have free will, only the illusion of it because it’s predetermined (science is even saying this may be the case) - whose fault? Maybe nobody’s in the big picture. Doesn’t mean it can’t be different - maybe it can, it’s not impossible - or that we can’t try to do better. God needs an image makeover.
 
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Good and Evil exist. They’re not universal laws of physics, they’re human behaviours manifested by conscious intentions. The idea that they both have to exist, is, I think, false. They do both exist but they don’t have to both exist if “all things are possible”. And if they do have to both exist they don’t have to exist in equal measure. Thats a fallacy we made up. Maybe they’re not equivalent opposite forces. Maybe we give evil too much significance and therefore it appears to thrive but it’s actually a weak force. A bit of good can go far. A lot of good can change the world. If we agree to try.
 
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timothyu said:
Yes and it is our very own adversarial spirit that does so. Nobody wants to think about the garden where we became self-aware and brought on all the things self initiates. We lost the concept of others and greed was the catalyst that produced need for the very laws from a mountain top that said stop it ! We were given a simple commandment 2000 years ago to rectify that, but today's world is the farthest from 'other' and the most into 'self ' we have ever been, thanks to the varying forms of media. Responsibility should come before rights that are self-perceived, self-justified, self-interest.
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Therein that "word" self as all wrapped up in self-determination when so much is uncertain!
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
But who are you to decide what everyone else’s responsibilities are and who is greedy or self interested? That sounds “self justified” to me. Are you so sure you’re none of those qualities?

To live in this world together, we need systems and structures. Fair ones.

That’s why we have international human rights laws via the UN (they’re largely not enforceable, but an honour system) that our laws should be based on if we want to contribute to a more just country and more just world order. People may have come up with it but they’re the most “golden rule” inspired laws we could possibly have come up with, and then some people come along and destroy it because they claim it’s not Christian enough - when it’s actually, for this world, a peak “wwjd” instrument. We neglected to honour it - and then in doing so, we created more inequality and a less integrated, caring, world than we could’ve otherwise had.

As for the garden, I can take no responsibility for God creating it, making Adam and Eve the way they were, then putting them in it knowing they’d screw up because he made humans fallible then punishing them for his own doing. The story falls apart there. The God I believe in, is not a psychopath.
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What if this is just part of a greater networking?
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Then the self interest came from God himself. How else? He invented the concept, gave us the ability to sin and then put us through riggers he set up for us. Sounds like a grift. Maybe an error. If I can think up a story where humans were made to live harmoniously in peace, and none of that ever happened - he could too, to be fair. And somewhere/ some level/ plain, I believe, there’s a God who didn’t do any of that to God’s own offspring.

Humans made God in their image. God deserves a better image.
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If god is everything is that a grander self interest that a singular (sole) interest can have when isolated and disconnected ... dissemmenating?
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Good and Evil exist. They’re not universal laws of physics, they’re human behaviours manifested by conscious intentions. The idea that they both have to exist, is, I think, false. They do both exist but they don’t have to both exist if “all things are possible”. And if they do have to both exist they don’t have to exist in equal measure. Thats a fallacy we made up. Maybe they’re not equivalent opposite forces. Maybe we give evil too much significance and therefore it appears to thrive but it’s actually a weak force. A bit of good can go far. A lot of good can change the world. If we agree to try.
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Knowledge and wisdom are required for discernment ... this is not high on the mortal agenda ... as philosophy is deterred by mysterious "stymie" process ... that's resistance to change! Change and stymie are just counterintuitive ... thus reality conflicts with the other party! Abstract ... the imaginary buddy (Buddha)?

Could be all in the head ... out of sight!

Maybe the basis of a re edition of the DSM ... good and evil could be bothersome floaters ... unattached?
 
I know you think you’re not mortal. But you are, like the rest of us. And you are unique and extremely smart but not infallible. I know you think people need to have PhD level knowledge of all things, but they don’t. Not everybody has your gifts and can aspire to that. It doesn’t leave room for those without your capacity. That’s not wise, or fair. I can sense that it must be lonely though, and that frustrates you.

I’ve met a few manipulators who pretend to be psychics or to have communications with the departed. That makes me a big skeptic. If it were even possible, I don’t think it’s our place to even toy with that activity. It can do harm to the “psyche” to go there - not because it’s real necessarily, but because it’s too disconnected from reality here and now - and real knowledge and empathy for this world can go out the window when people get obsessed with it. I’d rather have a straightforward mutual conversation than a one sided guessing game.

Sometimes wisdom is innate, like an instinct - or it’s a lived and learned quality. It’s not really an intellectual trait.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
I know you think you’re not mortal. But you are, like the rest of us. And you are unique and extremely smart but not infallible. I know you think people need to have PhD level knowledge of all things, but they don’t. Not everybody has your gifts and can aspire to that. It doesn’t leave room for those without your capacity. That’s not wise, or fair. I can sense that it must be lonely though, and that frustrates you.

I’ve met a few manipulators who pretend to be psychics or to have communications with the departed. That makes me a big skeptic. If it were even possible, I don’t think it’s our place to even toy with that activity. It can do harm to the “psyche” to go there - not because it’s real necessarily, but because it’s too disconnected from reality here and now - and real knowledge and empathy for this world can go out the window when people get obsessed with it. I’d rather have a straightforward mutual conversation than a one sided guessing game.

Sometimes wisdom is innate, like an instinct - or it’s a lived and learned quality. It’s not really an intellectual trait.
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Work with it ... it is quite an experience and one comes up with the concussion that I know nothing ... that's normal?

So we assume ...

I worked with a man of the earth (mire) yesterday ... his feeling was that experience was critical if not the source of some cynicism about experts in administration (without networks) ,,, he moves dirt, loam and digs holes ... there could be something in there ... that!
 
Luce NDs said:
Work with it ... it is quite an experience and one comes up with the concussion that I know nothing ... that's normal?

So we assume ...

I worked with a man of the earth (mire) yesterday ... his feeling was that experience was critical if not the source of some cynicism about experts in administration (without networks) ,,, he moves dirt, loam and digs holes ... there could be something in there ... that!
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There’s something worthwhile about everyone. Sometimes it’s hard to find but it’s there somewhere and requires protective gear just in case of leaking toxin. Otherwise, unwise.
 
jimkenney12 said:
If we have no self-interest, we will not maintain ourselves in such a condition that we will be able to be self-giving for others.
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Exactly. I know I have a tendency to harp on balance, but there's a balance needed. Caring for yourself makes you better able to care for others and caring for others can be part of caring for yourself by creating stronger relationships and a better community. Total self-interest or total abandonment of self both carry problems and penalties. We can care for ourselves while not letting it become total self-interest. My .02
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Then the self interest came from God himself
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Yes the Tree of good and evil was put there by God, for the universe nor God could exist without it. One half of a whole. Hybrids (humans) have the ability to go in two directions ever since formation and God put a part of Himself within us.. It was always a matter of choice from the beginning. Mind or matter. A parent can say no, but a child will still test the boundaries. Adam and Eve did. The problem comes when the child decides for self that gain can be made at the expense of others, and as a result becomes a weed. It's always been about choice and that is on us and not on God, unless you prefer He simply made us mindless drones. Take a pet dog. What would happen to it if you could put your intelligence into it?
 
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