Back to Those Tangents: This One's About Would-Be Singers.

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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Good luck with the song writing! Keep us posted. (Let us know if you write a hit song!)


Do you think narcissism has anything to do with Dunning-Kruger? It can also be the reverse.

It reminds me of a short documentary/ news piece I watched years ago. Overall, American high-schoolers scored poorly, academically, compared to their peers around the world. However, they scored far higher than others on confidence level.

Yup. I think character adds immeasurable quality to traditionally not great singing. Folk singers, too. Woody Guthrie, some Mississippi Delta blues, etc. In Canada, Stompin’ Tom Connors. We have Celine Dion…excellent singing voice. I can’t stand it though. (That said, she’s been ill and I wish her better health.)

There are some bad singers I’d rather listen to than some diva presenters with excellent voices. Except Bowie ;) (and some would debate that his voice even sounded good. I think it was amazing. Character and quality.)
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Narcissism can play a part in Dunning Kruger, but it is not the core of it. Most of the time it is not full blown narcissism, it is just people who do not have enough skill to realise what they are missing. They are not analysing their own performance properly, so their confidence fills in the blanks. Narcissism is a different thing, it is more about needing admiration, avoiding shame, and protecting an image. The two can overlap, but they are not the same.

The point about American high schoolers and confidence fits the pattern. If you are praised constantly without being given real feedback, you stop developing the ability to judge your own ability accurately. That creates a confidence bubble, which looks exactly like Dunning Kruger from the outside.

And on the singers, I agree, character can be far more interesting than technical polish. Loads of artists sound rough or unconventional but carry a mood, a truth, or a texture that a technically perfect singer cannot touch. Bowie is a perfect example, a voice full of personality, not textbook, but unforgettable.

My point was never about knocking expressive singers, or folk, or punk. It is more about how some people genuinely think they are hitting Mariah Carey notes when the recording is telling a very different story. The psychology of that gap interests me. It is not about banning anyone from singing, just observing the human side of it.

Did you know Bowie was a great fan of Anthony Newley, his Laughing Gnome song was done as a homage to Newley.
 
Mendalla said:
And for church singing, I do sing out loud but hope there's enough other, better voices around to drown me out. I actually had a church music director with a master's in music (and eventually a Phd but that was after he left my family's church) suggest I should join the choir. I held my laughter until he was out of earshot.
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The secondary modern school I went to had a mezzo soprano and a concert pianist, (husband and wife ). They retired in their thirties and became teachers of music, and we were honoured to have them. Music class was so much fun. At the end of every term we had musical renditions by other pupils, sometimes very good and sometimes ear bending.
 
Pavlos Maros said:
It is more about how some people genuinely think they are hitting Mariah Carey notes when the recording is telling a very different story. The psychology of that gap interests me. It is not about banning anyone from singing, just observing the human side of it.
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Yeah, there's a difference between a singer who knows their limitations and works within them (Bowie and Cohen being good examples you and I have cited) and a singer who has unrealistic ideas about their voice and skills (sadly, there's a few of those in pop/rock chart history, too). Everyone can sing, I would argue, but not everyone can sing like, say, Floor Jansen (to name my current favourite skilled, highly talented singer) nor do they need to nor should they pretend they can. Being realistic about your vocal abilities (or lack thereof) makes singing for pleasure more enjoyable and improves your art if you're doing it professionally.

(And then there's people like me who should have to register their voice as a lethal weapon. :ROFLMAO:)
 
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Pavlos Maros said:
Narcissism can play a part in Dunning Kruger, but it is not the core of it. Most of the time it is not full blown narcissism, it is just people who do not have enough skill to realise what they are missing. They are not analysing their own performance properly, so their confidence fills in the blanks. Narcissism is a different thing, it is more about needing admiration, avoiding shame, and protecting an image. The two can overlap, but they are not the same.

The point about American high schoolers and confidence fits the pattern. If you are praised constantly without being given real feedback, you stop developing the ability to judge your own ability accurately. That creates a confidence bubble, which looks exactly like Dunning Kruger from the outside.

And on the singers, I agree, character can be far more interesting than technical polish. Loads of artists sound rough or unconventional but carry a mood, a truth, or a texture that a technically perfect singer cannot touch. Bowie is a perfect example, a voice full of personality, not textbook, but unforgettable.

My point was never about knocking expressive singers, or folk, or punk. It is more about how some people genuinely think they are hitting Mariah Carey notes when the recording is telling a very different story. The psychology of that gap interests me. It is not about banning anyone from singing, just observing the human side of it.

Did you know Bowie was a great fan of Anthony Newley, his Laughing Gnome song was done as a homage to Newley.
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Having some pride in personal best? Or really truly can’t hear that they’re no Maria Carey or Pavarotti? Some people will not meet standard norms ever but shouldn’t be shamed for it. It’s singing not brain surgery.

If it’s not narcissism and it’s not a vocation critical to others’ survival then it’s a socially constructed “not really a problem” problem of judgmental-ness (the real problem, like ableism sort of). If they think they’re good singers, and they’re not nasty people, good for them. I’d probably like them better than the Mariah Careys just for that lol. It’s their “spirit”.

It’s sort of like body positivity - being proud or least appreciative of what you’ve got instead of ashamed of what you don’t have.

I often appreciate the quirky more than the perfect. Because I’m quirky lol
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Having some pride in personal best? Or really truly can’t hear that they’re no Maria Carey or Pavarotti? Some people will not meet standard norms ever but shouldn’t be shamed for it. It’s singing not brain surgery.

If it’s not narcissism and it’s not a vocation critical to others’ survival then it’s a socially constructed “not really a problem” problem of judgmental-ness (the real problem, like ableism sort of). If they think they’re good singers, and they’re not nasty people, good for them. I’d probably like them better than the Mariah Careys just for that lol. It’s their “spirit”.

It’s sort of like body positivity - being proud or least appreciative of what you’ve got instead of ashamed of what you don’t have.

I often appreciate the quirky more than the perfect. Because I’m quirky lol
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Kimmio. I hear what you are saying. I agree that people should not be shamed for singing. Pride in a personal best is healthy, and a lot of people genuinely cannot hear that they are off key. For some, it is simply how their ear works. They are not pretending, they really think they are on the note.

Where I was coming from is not about judging anyone for enjoying themselves. It is the interesting gap between what someone hears in their head and what comes out in the recording. That mismatch is a very human thing, and it is why the Dunning Kruger effect shows up so clearly in singing. It is the psychology that I find interesting, not the performance level itself.

I get your point about social attitudes too. A lot of what we call good or bad is shaped by norms we have learned. If someone enjoys their own voice and they are not hurting anyone, then fine, let them sing. Joy and spirit do count for something.

And yes, quirky can be more enjoyable than perfect. A bit of roughness or individuality can make a voice feel real and memorable. Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
Pavlos Maros said:
The secondary modern school I went to had a mezzo soprano and a concert pianist, (husband and wife ). They retired in their thirties and became teachers of music, and we were honoured to have them.
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My secondary modern school had a wonderful pianist as the music teacher. She sometimes accompanied London operas and musicals. Every day we walked into and out of Assembly to classical music beautifully played. Too bad her ability to teach wasn't as memorable.
 
KayTheCurler said:
My secondary modern school had a wonderful pianist as the music teacher. She sometimes accompanied London operas and musicals. Every day we walked into and out of Assembly to classical music beautifully played. Too bad her ability to teach wasn't as memorable.
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My high school did well on the music front. The main band teacher and leader of most of the school bands was also music director of the Waterloo Concert Band. And the guy who conducted the school orchestra (oddly, he was not actually a music teacher, just a teacher who happened to be a musician) played in the Waterloo Region Police Band. I did instrumental music, playing clarinet.
 
The band teacher in elementary school had us practice scales while he sang silly jingles along with them. I played flute for a year. I played piano for a couple but my coordination - making sure my left and right hands moved separately to play chords and notes was the biggest problem (and breathe in the case of flute). I was only good enough to a point - not a fine point. CP affects mostly my legs (spastic dyplegia - in the legs - in CP usually affects the arms and hands sometimes but not enough to be classified as such) … a little bit in my arms and hands that’s noticeable for tasks that specific. My brain just couldn’t make my hands work separately the more complicated it got. Only basic songs. Too much fine multitasking for me. I wanted to play guitar but that was impossibly tricky for me. I have some arthritis in my wrists and fingers now so forget it.

That teacher at least kept in tune enough to be passable but he was more funny than a good singer lol

One of my goals is to become a “Garage Band” (the app) professional lol. Seriously, to use to help me write songs others can play. I have a musical ear.
 
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paradox3 said:
Some people claim that anyone can be taught to sing passably. I wonder if this is true?

Of course it would be necessary to recognize there is a problem and seek out instruction.
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I don't know. The big guy would kinda like me to find out. I sing all day, apparently, to whatever I've got playing, always CBC, so I hum to the classical unless it has words. Like Ode to Joy or similar. Apparently it sounds pretty awful. We wonder if I joined the choir if I would make the noise around the house better or the noise at front of the sanctuary worse.

I do have a very pleasant reading voice, but a former music director at our church explained to me that the areas of the vocal chords responsible for singing are in a different area than those for speaking.
 
BetteTheRed said:
I don't know. The big guy would kinda like me to find out. I sing all day, apparently, to whatever I've got playing, always CBC, so I hum to the classical unless it has words. Like Ode to Joy or similar. Apparently it sounds pretty awful. We wonder if I joined the choir if I would make the noise around the house better or the noise at front of the sanctuary worse.

I do have a very pleasant reading voice, but a former music director at our church explained to me that the areas of the vocal chords responsible for singing are in a different area than those for speaking.
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My son says if I sing with earphones on, I sound like a cat being strangled. However if I don't at least he says, I can hold a tune. Lol.
 
Imagine a great accrued complement of word coming back at yah ... that could create howls and whines, maybe wolves as the wind was known in some traditions ... some living down deep holes ... those attached to realism cannot grasp the abstract called psyche ... it is a real hummer!
 
Mendalla said:
This is me. I'm often complimented when I speak in public. Interesting what that choir director told you. Would explain me if true.
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Interestingly enough, I have an almost-twin, a girl born the day before me, and our Moms shared a room, back in the days when they kept you for several days after childbirth. She also, coincidentally, found herself in our congregation a few years ago, and promptly joined the choir. She has a spectacular soprano voice, and an absolutely dull speaking voice.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Interestingly enough, I have an almost-twin, a girl born the day before me, and our Moms shared a room, back in the days when they kept you for several days after childbirth. She also, coincidentally, found herself in our congregation a few years ago, and promptly joined the choir. She has a spectacular soprano voice, and an absolutely dull speaking voice.
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Are there some broadcasters that make you feel like a fingernail on the chalque board? Calcined and driving one to write instead of speaking about material that folk hate to hear ... truth? Marie Ant. spoke about chaulk in a different spelling and intent ... it referred to the dirt of life that many powers overlook, or oversee poorly!

Thus some of us keep it down to subtle irony ... hammered and Thor?

That hammer was discussed in J Kirsch's book on the Grand Inquisitor's Manuel ... something to wait for because it is coming ... as if anon! Be patience because there may be a test at the end ... if you fail life may have to be done again ... Oh Lord no! Chaos does exist ... I feel it ... that bloody stir with some neurological fluidity! The body of the unheavenly item ... thus demo logical studies ... demoniacs? Wouldn't that trump the gambler?

Thus we question many weird and alien droppers ... those dropping names ...
 
Remember that we live in a new age where anything other than hollow praise is considered shaming. The concept of quality has gone out the window as the last 30 years of music shows, stuck in the same formula without growth, and self identity has become more important than actual talent. You asked.
 
Pavlos Maros said:
In short, in these anonymous corners of the internet, the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't just present, it's rampant.

Do you have a view as to why?
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Bring it back to religion. Why are the most cocksure Christians the least intelligent? Dunning-Kruger is a thing for a reason.

The hard part is you can't, in good conscience, tell someone their voice sucks. As luck would have it, if someone tells you you're going to hell, you have license to make fun of their faith.
 
timothyu said:
Remember that we live in a new age where anything other than hollow praise is considered shaming. The concept of quality has gone out the window as the last 30 years of music shows, stuck in the same formula without growth, and self identity has become more important than actual talent. You asked.
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I have said it before and I will say it again. If that's your perception of modern music, you're looking in the wrong places. The pop charts have always been rather vacuous in the end and I have never relied on them to find music. Look for indie music. Look at things like the European metal scene that I follow (indeed, metal in general other than maybe the current pop metalcore trend). Look at prog and jazz where there's some seriously creative, talented, innovative music happening. There's a metric f-ton of creativity out there, it just doesn't make the "Hot 100" or get mainstream radio airplay. One of the best things about streaming is that you can actually find this stuff relatively easily compared to the past where discovering new music often depended on it getting radio airplay somewhere or stumbling across it in some back corner of a record shop (or having a record shop owner who actually knew his stuff). If I come across an artist I like or someone recommends someone, I fire up Spotify and search and kaboom, there it is.

/rant off
 
chansen said:
Bring it back to religion. Why are the most cocksure Christians the least intelligent? Dunning-Kruger is a thing for a reason.

The hard part is you can't, in good conscience, tell someone their voice sucks. As luck would have it, if someone tells you you're going to hell, you have license to make fun of their faith.
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Does define the up/down curves ... REDBARON's ballgame ...
 
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