1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

[jimkenney12]

The passage I am offering this week is from 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 The version copied below is from the NRSVUE

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So, then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober, 7 for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober and put on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

 

[jimkenney12]

The passage I am offering this week is from 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 The version copied below is from the NRSVUE

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So, then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober, 7 for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober and put on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

The key words in this passage for me were light and awake. The passage fits the theme of Matthew 24 and 25 with the idea that the kingdom can spring on us at any time, so be ready. Being ready here includes being awake with eyes and ears and mind alert and paying attention and living in the light. For me, living in the light features using whatever light we need to see and understand what is happening to us and in the world. It means being aware of what we are feeling such as feeling scorned and being aware of how what we are feeling can affect what we are perceiving. I love the phrase, "let us be sober and put on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation."

 

[Luce NDs]

There are cults that will counter this perspective as it does not allow them to fill desires that are somewhat self-centered or what is sometimes referred to as nihilistic or some folding in on themselves ...

There are matters and principalities out there to learn of so they can be avoided ... thus eliminated as autonomous and good for no larger culture of improving the integral thing ... thence life gets dippy ... as some believe following desires is the only way to get what is personally clambered for ... w/o consideration of anything else no matter how expansive ... (that without and not Ho's; Oz is another matter, like a tacky fluid phlogiston, an entirely different etude) It is dark and dirty vision ... like the muddied waters of Jordan ... cross-over spot?

 

[paradox3]

Yes, this letter emphasizes the need to be prepared because we don't know when to expect end times. They will arrive as a thief in the night which sounds ominous.

Does this lesson address predestination?

"God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (v. 9)

Sure sounds like others can expect the wrath of God. Not exactly an inclusive theology, is it?

 

[Luce NDs]

Yes, this letter emphasizes the need to be prepared because we don't know when to expect end times. They will arrive as a thief in the night which sounds ominous.

Does this lesson address predestination?

"God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (v. 9)

Sure sounds like others can expect the wrath of God. Not exactly an inclusive theology, is it?

Maybe to learn something from vast collapse?

Nah, that won't happen ... the overwhelming proportion would rather not learn of alien matter, etc.

 

[Waterfall]

Sure sounds like others can expect the wrath of God. Not exactly an inclusive theology, is it?

Or were they expecting the wrath of the Greeks and the Romans, as Thessaloniki was a city in Greece/Macedonia?
Introducing a new religion in an area of Greek and Roman religions might have seemed seditious to the people living there. Possibly they had a fear of persecution and Paul was offering hope and strength to stay in their beliefs?

 

[jimkenney12]

It is not predestination as their salvation is available to others who choose it. But it is about end times. Paul, like many others then, expected the end times to arrive at any moment. There are other kinds of end times including divorce, terminal illness, loss of a job, illness or death of a loved one, war, natural disasters.

Being truly awake, living in the light, faith, love, and hope help us respond to and cope with those kinds of moments. If we stay aware of what is happening within ourselves and in the world and live as faithful, loving, and hopeful people, we are more likely to have a relationship network that will help us find healing and strength in difficult situations and we will have a mindset that will help us see opportunities and options in those end times moments.

 

[Mendalla]

Mythologically speaking, "end times" is really an ongoing thing, not a one-time future event. Societies rise and fall, people live and die, and so on. Living in a state of awareness of the fact that there could always be something that will change our reality suddenly is really a sensible philosophy up to a point. The problem is that some take it too far and either submerge their entire life into "doomsday prepping" or give up in despair rather than actually living a full life, which is the real preparation. So I tend to see this as a call to live that full life rather than focusing on "prepping". Living a full life IS prepping.

 

[Mendalla]

Mythologically speaking, "end times" is really an ongoing thing, not a one-time future event. Societies rise and fall, people live and die, and so on. Living in a state of awareness of the fact that there could always be something that will change our reality suddenly is really a sensible philosophy up to a point. The problem is that some take it too far and either submerge their entire life into "doomsday prepping" or give up in despair rather than actually living a full life, which is the real preparation. So I tend to see this as a call to live that full life rather than focusing on "prepping". Living a full life IS prepping.

Thinking further, I'm thinking of Britain in the 5th century. After four centuries of Roman rule, the Romans withdrew, leaving the Celt and Celto-Romanic societies left behind to their own devices. It became a rather chaotic period as new peoples moved and existing peoples moved around and formed new societies. It is becoming apparent in modern scholarship that it was not as "Dark" as the old name "Dark Ages" suggests, but it was certainly the end of an era for the Britons and any Roman settlers who remained behind. Perhaps it was not Arthur fighting for the survival of civilization against the Anglo-Saxons, but it was definitely a different world from what existed when Britain was a Roman province. And from a religious standpoint, the Celto-Romans had largely converted to Christianity by this point, but the new arrivals from the continent, the Jutes, Angles, and Saxons, were still Germanic pagans and did not convert right away so that, too, probably gave it a bit of an "end times" feel for the Celtic Christians.

(I've been watching a YouTube channel called the Cambrian Chronicles that talks a lot about this period, if with a special focus on the West of Britain, i.e. Wales)

 

[jimkenney12]

Prepping for end times is living fully including building networks of positive relationships. The relationships enhance life now and help in the end times.

 

[paradox3]

Prepping for end times is living fully including building networks of positive relationships. The relationships enhance life now and help in the end times.

This would be true for any kind of end times experience. The apocalyptic teaching by Jesus included a final judgment and I am inclined to think Paul echoes that.

True enough he doesn't express this in so many words. He does speak of destruction and people being caught unaware and unprepared.

 

[jimkenney12]

We have Paul's expectations which did not happen and his words, some of which contain wisdom for living.

The apocalyptic movement was very strong in the Jewish community at the time so they were looking for someone like the Son of Man in the Apocrypha book of Daniel and were looking at and listening to Jesus through that lense.

Looking at the world today, we have climate change, over 100,000,000 refugees or displaced people, a variety of changes and potential changes economically, angry tribalism, and a variety of wars along with more potential pandemics. Life is almost certainly going to get very messy and feel like end times.

 

[Luce NDs]

How does one filter through concepts that God saves and God is a vengeful spirit ... a duality or just a Dutch essence like the flying Dutchman ... demonic?

Makes for grand spookiness for those that can't filter through the crap fed by those lying in wait for winning alone! Gold digging ... an attitude?

Thus they moil ...

 

[Mystic]

We have Paul's expectations which did not happen and his words, some of which contain wisdom for living.

The apocalyptic movement was very strong in the Jewish community at the time so they were looking for someone like the Son of Man in the Apocrypha book of Daniel and were looking at and listening to Jesus through that lense.

In fact, Jesus' self-understanding as the apocalyptic Son of Man is based on Daniel 7:13-14.

 

[Luce NDs]

And consider Dan was a metaphor for the devil as Dan stoked the fires among the lyres ... lions! Burning consciences ...

It is an invisible flame ...

 

[Carolla]

3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them,

The parallel to Oct 7 events seem clear.

At a different level - Is the message also perhaps about our own internal sense & way of being - not external catastophic events? Pride or arrogance going before a fall? When we personally think we've got all the answers? And then find out we don't - can we even recognize these moments? How do we process that? Do we see it as personal destruction? How can we maintain a sense of humility & curiosity?

Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

As a disciple, how do we continue to love our neighbour - all our neighbours, with an open heart?

 

[Nancy]

Carolla's last question reminds me of a dream I had last night...a rather disturbing dream. As you know, there was a horrible murder/suicide in our city, in which a man shot his girlfriend, and his three children before turning the gun on himself. He wounded the mother in an intentional way so that she could watch her children die. How can I love a 'neighbour' like that? But, in my dream, I dreamt that I had met this guy, known that he was a little 'off' but felt that he was working hard at redemption. So, I felt that I had accepted and forgiven him, and he was grateful. I was rather optimistic and Pollyanna-ish about him. Then the murder happened and I kept wondering (in my dream still) if there was some evil I hadn't seen in him, or some way I had allowed it to happen by accepting him. Somehow I felt responsible and when I woke up I kept telling myself that I had never met the guy. Isn't that a weird dream?

 

[Waterfall]

Carolla's last question reminds me of a dream I had last night...a rather disturbing dream. As you know, there was a horrible murder/suicide in our city, in which a man shot his girlfriend, and his three children before turning the gun on himself. He wounded the mother in an intentional way so that she could watch her children die. How can I love a 'neighbour' like that? But, in my dream, I dreamt that I had met this guy, known that he was a little 'off' but felt that he was working hard at redemption. So, I felt that I had accepted and forgiven him, and he was grateful. I was rather optimistic and Pollyanna-ish about him. Then the murder happened and I kept wondering (in my dream still) if there was some evil I hadn't seen in him, or some way I had allowed it to happen by accepting him. Somehow I felt responsible and when I woke up I kept telling myself that I had never met the guy. Isn't that a weird dream?

Sometimes I have to let God do the forgiving and accept that I believe God will.

 

[Luce NDs]

If there is heaven and hell in the state of mind; must there be some conditions attached to all free actions?

Then it come back at yah ... after the former going'son ... and how the going'son went ...

 

[unsafe]

My view on this ---and again there are 2 lens in view here --Intellectual and Spiritual ------mine is seen through the Spiritual lens -----

This Chapter 5 is a continuation of the latter part of Chapter 4 ---which is about the Rapture of the Saints both dead and alive before the 7 year Tribulation begins ------and then Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation which is the Second Coming of Jesus for Judgment----the separating of the Sheep from the Goats ---all these events come under the Day of the Lord ---

The Day of the Lord - The Gospel Coalition

The day of the Lord [Yahweh] refers both to the ultimate time when Yahweh will punish and restore the whole world through Christ’s first and second comings.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

What Is the Day of the Lord?​

The phrase “the day of Yahweh” and its abbreviated parallels (e.g., “the/that day”) refer both to the ultimate time when Yahweh will punish and restore/re-create the whole world and to the periodic pen-ultimate days that clarify and anticipate it. In this context, therefore, “day” refers more to an event in time rather than an extent of time. On the one hand, God’s prophets and apostles identify the day of the Lord as the climactic event when God establishes his sovereignty, eradicates all evil, and brings lasting peace on a universal scale (e.g., Zeph. 1:14–18; 3:8–10; 2Thes. 1:9–10; 2Pet. 3:10)

I say ---we don't know the day or the hour -----so it will be like a thief in the night ------it is compared to the Flood in the day of Noah -----no one knew when the flood would come ===people were going about their day and all of a sudden disaster struck ---and all evil on the earth was destroyed----- God's wrath was unleashed on the wicked -------

Matthew 24
Readiness at Any Hour
…39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.…

This is the separating of the Saints who receive Salvation during the 7 year Tribulation and the the people who refused to come to receive Salvation ----the sheep and goats ----the one taken is sent away to their eternal death ----the one left is the Saint who will remain to inhabit the new Earth ---

So verses 1 -3 --teach readiness for God's return ----

verses 4-5 describe the different between the sons of the light and those who are in the dark ---and that at one time the sons of light were in the darkness but that is in the past and the sons of light are to live up to what God expects of them ----that God's wrath will not over take the righteous ---God's children should be read for the day He returns ------

verses 6-8----is saying that God's children should not sleep -----this word sleep refers to

Strong's Concordance
hupnos: sleep
sleep; fig: spiritual sleep.

They are to be awake and put on the spiritual armour ----of faith --love and hope of Salvation ----without these things no Christian is equipped to live the Christian life ---

verses 9 and 10 -----is about the Security of God's Children who are to live with Him having salvation through Him which involves divine initiative and our effort ----the promise of unity with Jesus can't be broken ---we will always be with him ------God's Children are not designed for wrath but should encourage and edify one another ---

verse 11----God's Children should be living a life which is alert and active and advancing God's Kingdom while they await His return ------