Implications of the Biblical Interventionist God

[Mystic]

(3) An omnipotent God micro-manages the laws of Nature. So all creation chaos (natural disasters, fatal disease, etc.) is a manifestation of His will because there is no true victimization due to chance and accidents. So if a young child dies of a fatal congenital condition or is killed in an accident, that must be God's will. Wrong!

PART I: GOD CAN'T--JESUS:

Jesus teaches that the right kind of faith can work miracles.
Jesus praises healing faith when He encounters it (Luke 7:9; Matthew 15:28).
Jesus rebukes His disciples' doubts when they fail to perform miracles (Mark 9:18-19; Matthew 14:31)."
Jesus therefore assumes that His disciples are responsible for developing their own healing faith: e. g.
"Have faith in God... So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours (Mark 11:22-23

So Bette is correct that God's failure to perform a miracle to save a starving Sudenese child is morally reprehensible. Right? Nope.

"He COULD DO NO deed of power there, (except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and cured them.) And He was amazed at their unbelief (Mark 6:6)."
The except clause in in parentheses because NT scholars rightly consider it a later scribal gloss. Mark could have said that Jesus was only able to heal a few in Nazareth. Instead, the text is self-contradictory, saying "He could do no deed of power there" and then contradicts itself with the except clause--a telltale sign of the gloss intended to minimize Jesus' humiliation in trying and failing to cure Nazareth residents. The result of Jesus' humiliating failure? Nazareth residents are "scandalized" by Him and claims about His miraculous messianic powers. Worse, even His own family is disillusioned:

"A prophet is not without honor,... except among His own kin and in His own house (6:4)."

This failure warrants the inference that faith can be a necessary condition for healing faith without being a sufficient condition. Such limitations imposed on God's will prompt Paul to identify Satan or the forces of Chaos rather than Yahweh as "the God of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)."

The OT scope of God's limited power in Creation will be explored in greater detail in Part II of my response to point (3). Stay tuned.

Mark's candid willingness to report Jesus' hometown humiliation adds credibility to his miracle stories.

 

[Luce NDs]

It is all a paradox in which much of the information is vacant ... because god is in the dark and thus rests!

Contributes to many of those smudges on the flat out pages ... well buoyed? The place void of light is thus mysterious and dark as obtuse storms of experience with such things in the quantum field (that's a Wahl in some forms of Yiddish. Then there is Ish Mael ... given that Ish was fore in some archaic translations and Mael is just a weird storm ... like when love ignites spontaneity (thu spond/spawn as noisy production)!

Remember it is al just words in/on a medium and you know how mortals are about either word or the carrier ... Ares? And round the Turin we go ... resembling a caldron? Words can really get entangled ... like things smaller than basic matter (atomistic ... blast philia)! Emotions explode ... some of us duck!

A late friend called them emerald ... touch of vertex goes ... clear Din?

 

[Mystic]

(3) An omnipotent God micro-manages the laws of Nature. So all creation chaos (natural disasters, fatal disease, etc.) is a manifestation of His will because there is no true victimization due to chance and accidents. So if a young child dies of a fatal congenital condition or is killed in an accident, that must be God's will.

PART II: GOD CAN'T--THE OT

"Israel bears witness to an awareness that there is alive in the world a force (Chaos and Death) that is counter to the world of Yahweh, a force that seeks to negate...the world as a secure place of blessing.... This Chaos may go by many different names...which we may summarize under the names of Death or Nihil (Nothingness)... Yahweh has the upper hand but is not fully in control, and so from time to time creation is threatened."
(Walter Brueggemann,"The Theology of the Old Testament," p.534)

In modern terms God cannot be blamed because He does not micro-manage the laws of Nature set in motion at Creation, and so, bad things can happen to good people victimized by accidents and Chance:

"The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful;
BUT ALL ARE VICTIMS OF TIME AND CHANCE. For no one can anticipate the time of disaster (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12)."

Such human victimization assumes "the assignment of severe negation to Yahweh's own sovereign capacity, in which Yahweh does evil as well as good (Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 45:7)." But God is not morally culpable for this evil, which rather reveals His permissive will towards Nature's laws and human misuse of free will. Thus, the God who lacks complete control is often portrayed as regretting what is happening (e. g. Genesis 6:6-7; 1 Samuel 15:11). The psalms of complaint "give almost no attention to sin and guilt, but are pleas that a neglectful Yahweh should again pay attention (Brueggemann, pp. 537-38)." Divine neglect is not intended a moral charge against Yahweh, but merely reflects Israel's experience of a transpersonal God, whose ways and thoughts differ from our own. The negativity and unbelief in Jesus' hometown, including His own family, thwarts His efforts to heal the sick there (Mark 6:6).

But of course Israel expects and experiences occasional divine intervention in response to the intercessions of faith. How does this work? Through divine activation of latent powers of the human mind? Through synchronicities (meaningful but uncaused coincidences)? Ancient Israel is rightly content
to view that as an unsolved mystery.

 

[Mendalla]

"The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful;
BUT ALL ARE VICTIMS OF TIME AND CHANCE. For no one can anticipate the time of disaster (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12)."

I keep wanting to do a BPoTW on Ecclesiastes. It's possibly the most philosophical book of The Bible and has long appealed to me on that level. The outlook is surprisingly modern. Just have never managed to nail down what chapter(s) to use.

It is interesting that the Hebrews seem to have accepted (per what you posted) that God is not a micro-manager of our existence. And, yet, that argument keeps coming up in some Christian sects and, of course, their atheist opponents. Part of the appeal of process for me is that it hews closer to the view you seem to be gleaning from the Old Testament. The universe moves forward in its own way by the physical laws that govern matter and energy and it doesn't always give us what we want or need. But God can, and does, try to influence that motion on a macro level (e.g. speaking through prophets, giving signs, the Incarnation, etc.).

 

[Mystic]

I keep wanting to do a BPoTW on Ecclesiastes. It's possibly the most philosophical book of The Bible and has long appealed to me on that level. The outlook is surprisingly modern. Just have never managed to nail down what chapter(s) to use.

It is interesting that the Hebrews seem to have accepted (per what you posted) that God is not a micro-manager of our existence. And, yet, that argument keeps coming up in some Christian sects and, of course, their atheist opponents. Part of the appeal of process for me is that it hews closer to the view you seem to be gleaning from the Old Testament. The universe moves forward in its own way by the physical laws that govern matter and energy and it doesn't always give us what we want or need. But God can, and does, try to influence that motion on a macro level (e.g. speaking through prophets, giving signs, the Incarnation, etc.).

So I think Bette is mistaken to blame God for starving Sudanese children during the current civil war there. The non-micro-managing God does not intervene in human wars, but instead expects Christians like my friend Ken to serve as stewards of the Earth (so Genesis 1:28) and try to make a decisive difference. Ken was a former member of my Bible study. He joined forces with a local Christian doctor and others to arrange for a feeding program for fleeing Sudanese refugees in Ethiopia. This program expanded to medical care and later to a small medical school, partnering with an American medical school to train Sudenese refugess to become doctors--and all this despite hurdles created by the ever-changing political scene in Ethiopia.

 

[Mendalla]

he non-micro-managing God does not intervene in human wars, but instead expects Christians like my friend Ken to serve as stewards of the Earth (so Genesis 1:28) and try to make a decisive difference.

Exactly. It's what process means when they talk about "lures"; God leading us on to further their plan rather than intervening themselves.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

I just realized there are at least two understandings of interventionist. One is where God controls everything and the other is where God influences some people to make decisions and to choose particular actions and helps make the yeses to invitations succeed. The relationships to me seem to be two way relationships where both sides say yes to the relationship. Sometimes the yes is reluctant.

I cannot believe in or respect a god who controls everything. I do believe in and respect a divinity that engages with us respectfully. i believe there were times when I said no and my life is probably less than what it might have been if I had heard the invitation and said yes.

Oh good, another possible convert to Process Christianity.......

 

[jimkenney12]

What is process Christianity? Ken Wilbur wrote a book called A Brief History of Everything. In it he presented the concept of the Spirit of Creation as evolving along with us. This fits with the name of God in Exodus as I am Becoming. I like the idea of the Holy Mystery as having a direction but not a destination for us and the Universe.

 

[Mendalla]

What is process Christianity? Ken Wilbur wrote a book called A Brief History of Everything. In it he presented the concept of the Spirit of Creation as evolving along with us. This fits with the name of God in Exodus as I am Becoming. I like the idea of the Holy Mystery as having a direction but not a destination for us and the Universe.

That's one key element of process in a nutshell. A lot of process writing is a bit dense and academic but Tom Oord is one who is fairly readable. See the thread about his book God Can't in the Study Groups forum.

 

[jimkenney12]

Thank you.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

What is process Christianity? Ken Wilbur wrote a book called A Brief History of Everything. In it he presented the concept of the Spirit of Creation as evolving along with us. This fits with the name of God in Exodus as I am Becoming. I like the idea of the Holy Mystery as having a direction but not a destination for us and the Universe.

I agree with Mendalla - it's too "academic" to attract the interest that, i.m.o. it should attract. Oord is attempting to rectify this, but I found Marjorie Suchoki
helpful.

https://processandfaith.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/what-is-process-theology.pdf

 

[jimkenney12]

Thank you. Philosophers seem to love to kake the simple complicated. Process theology is similar to evolutionary Christianity emphasizing changing relationships versus the changing understandings of evolutionary Christianity. The speculation by Ken Wilbur is a specific application of process theology. Process theology is dangerous to leaders who act as defenders of the faith.

 

[Luce NDs]

If God is Everything ... is that enough to raise to sets of paranoia; one of learning and the alter as fear of not knowing?

This drives some a log way into the unknown and thus many do not understand us as they dash on (a dash of MB personalities presented as dwarfs).

Steven Hawking elaborated on this and the horizon event ... hard to transit? Thus trans meditation ... how thoughts take flight!

 

[Luce NDs]

Thank you. Philosophers seem to love to kake the simple complicated. Process theology is similar to evolutionary Christianity emphasizing changing relationships versus the changing understandings of evolutionary Christianity. The speculation by Ken Wilbur is a specific application of process theology. Process theology is dangerous to leaders who act as defenders of the faith.

Mortals really have difficulty with mental-emotional maturity ... thus the containment fails!

 

[Mystic]

Thank you. Philosophers seem to love to kake the simple complicated. Process theology is similar to evolutionary Christianity emphasizing changing relationships versus the changing understandings of evolutionary Christianity. The speculation by Ken Wilbur is a specific application of process theology. Process theology is dangerous to leaders who act as defenders of the faith.

When I was in Princeton Seminary, I wrote a long research paper on Process Theology, focusing on its pioners Hartshorne and Cobb. To me it is far too arbitrary to be taken seriously and it seemed to have little appeal in our Theology department. What does have merit is progressive revelation. throughout the OT era and beyond. As Judaeo-Christian cultures evolved, so did their grasp of the subtleties of the God who acts.

 

[Mendalla]

I wrote a long research paper on Process Theology, focusing on its pioners Hartshorne and Cobb

I actually have Hartshorne' Man's Vision of God on my bookshelf. Tough read to say the least. I've read a bit of Cobb, too, and heard him speak on podcasts. I inherited the book from Grandad (UCCan minister with a Th.D.) who I believe might have got it from our late friend Panentheism (Rev. Dr. George Hermanson). At least Pan once told me he tried to interest Grandad in process but it didn't fly.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

When you get behind the academic writing on Process Theology it actually has a lot of practical advice on how to live out your life as a person of faith.
Here is an example.......

When I attended a Process Theology seminar in Claremont, USA, I met John B. Cobb, and asked him this question.

"As Christians, we're supposed to love our enemy. I get the theory, but in practice, I find it difficult. Have you any ideas on how I can get better at it?"
This was his reply.....
"You and I have never met before, have we?"
"No", I replied.
"Would you say that the person standing before me is the result of her hereditary, early childhood influences, people and ideas she's encountered throughout life?"
"Yes, that about sums me up", I replied.
"Well, it's the same for your so-called enemy. Once you truly understand this, and give serious weight to those influences, I have found it's very difficult to hate someone once you understand how these influences have impacted on them - just as your influences have impacted on you. You have this in common."

The connection with Process thought is this. -
God never gives up on us. Through people and ideas we meet we're given opportunity to become "Kingdom people".

I'm grateful that I made the long trip to the USA from Oz and got to meet John B. Cobb. I no longer have enemies - just folks whose ideas and way of life I disagree with. The toxic anger is no longer felt.......

 

[Luce NDs]

When you get behind the academic writing on Process Theology it actually has a lot of practical advice on how to live out your life as a person of faith.
Here is an example.......

When I attended a Process Theology seminar in Claremont, USA, I met John B. Cobb, and asked him this question.

"As Christians, we're supposed to love our enemy. I get the theory, but in practice, I find it difficult. Have you any ideas on how I can get better at it?"
This was his reply.....
"You and I have never met before, have we?"
"No", I replied.
"Would you say that the person standing before me is the result of her hereditary, early childhood influences, people and ideas she's encountered throughout life?"
"Yes, that about sums me up", I replied.
"Well, it's the same for your so-called enemy. Once you truly understand this, and give serious weight to those influences, I have found it's very difficult to hate someone once you understand how these influences have impacted on them - just as your influences have impacted on you. You have this in common."

The connection with Process thought is this. -
God never gives up on us. Through people and ideas we meet we're given opportunity to become "Kingdom people".

I'm grateful that I made the long trip to the USA from Oz and got to meet John B. Cobb. I no longer have enemies - just folks whose ideas and way of life I disagree with. The toxic anger is no longer felt.......

Yet strong and freed will will not accept such understanding and thus MS information spreads easier than understanding and psyche! Those of will will get themselves into this soup until it thickens to a cept Eck stew/swamp like Eckhart and other mystics! These are darkly denied ... there's secular and sacred meaning there ... its the "beyond" sector ...

 

[Luce NDs]

If you have an understanding of vast things ... it is best to keep it self-conscious as if you speak of alien illumination ... it is common that you will be denied!

That's homo sapiens :

• Homo, is like common, John, a thorough mix
• Sapiens, is like wisdom, or complexity in sophistication and people like simple ... thus stories hiding alien science (observational experience).

There are implications!

 

[jimkenney12]

Loving our enemies does not mean liking them. It means caring about their well-being.