Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[chansen]

If you don't see the bad - that's how risks get missed.

If you only see the bad, and you get your way, good people suffer needlessly.

Chemgal was more correct than I was. You only see the black.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I can see both bad and good with this. The good is outweighing the bad with what I see.

If one person dies who could've lived better and might've changed their mind the bad outweighs the good. That person will have been killed when they should've been saved.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If you only see the bad, and you get your way, good people suffer needlessly.

Chemgal was more correct than I was. You only see the black.

If one person slips through the cracks and dies the bad outweighs the good.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Good people can learn to live well with disability - and if they choose not to it'll become a systemic assumption. You people are being short sighted as if the government never short-shrifts the disadvantaged or cuts social programs from the bottom to save money. So people don't need to choose suicide but will other options even be there anymore? Maybe you're assuming too much.

Do you not think they'll be looking at the assisted suicide program and weighing the costs/ savings against other programs in the budget? You think that's not possible?

 

[chansen]

If one person slips through the cracks and dies the bad outweighs the good.

This is exactly like saying, "If there is one traffic fatality, all cars should be banned."

This is precisely what you are saying.

Yes, that one that slips through is terrible, but with everything, there is a balance. You don't make the world suffer because you think, or even know, that a tool that could help so many people, might be abused.

The positive thing would be to work to improve the rules and oversight. But you don't get to tell all people with disabilities what they should think (or be declared a traitor), or say to those who don't have disabilities that we are ableist because we don't agree with you.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This is exactly like saying, "If there is one traffic fatality, all cars should be banned."

This is precisely what you are saying.

Yes, that one that slips through is terrible, but with everything, there is a balance. You don't make the world suffer because you think, or even know, that a tool that could help so many people, might be abused.

The positive thing would be to work to improve the rules and oversight. But you don't get to tell all people with disabilities what they should think (or be declared a traitor), or say to those who don't have disabilities that we are ableist because we don't agree with you.

You are being ableist for not caring to take on this perspective and let it sink in. That's your right. We are talking about people vulnerable to killing themselves. People who are already undervalued in society. People who don't have a lot of family support or adequate social support. People who know our social system is broken because they live it - barely. People like me in about 10 years or less, friends of mine - and we're afraid and all you can say is our fears are stupid and make callous jokes.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

So, which is worse - someone suffers in too much pain for 8 days like Dr.Lowe, or the person who doesn't have a terminal illness who dies decades before their time, because they weren't offered help to live? Which is morally worse?

 

[blackbelt1961]

I did not realize how controversial this thread can be , I think the questions here I posted has been exhausted,

time for the Mods to shut down this thread

 

[chansen]

That's probably not a bad idea, bb.

Anyone want to make the obvious joke about putting this thread out of its misery?

Sorry, the occasional joke is the only way I can cope with stuff that goes on in these threads. Us ableists are like that.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Oh, no, don't kill it. It could go on forever...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Piss off - you had to, huh?

 

[chansen]

"Oh, no, don't kill it. It could go on forever..."

Coincidentally, also overhead in the crowd during Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[Void]

What about horticulturalists? Car clubs? Sailplane enthusiasts?

Why just ask churches? They have no more standing on this issue than any other group of people.

Wow... post #4 on this thread. Sorry for the delayed `Like'. It took a me a while to find this again (said the new guy) but I'm learning by doing. I do enjoy your clever wit. Horticulturalists are under-represented as a group. I will try to promote them. If I say horticulturalist, it will be in fact, my current word for `everyone'.

 

[chansen]

Piss off - you had to, huh?

It's a coping mechanism. I make wisecracks all the time.

Know who gave us Carter's initial diagnosis of massive brain injury? Dr. Donner. Think I didn't say something, to try to lift the gloom?

 

[chansen]

Wow... post #4 on this thread. Sorry for the delayed `Like'. It took a me a while to find this again (said the new guy) but I'm learning by doing. I do enjoy your clever wit. Horticulturalists are under-represented as a group. I will try to promote them. If I say horticulturalist, it will be in fact, my current word for `everyone'.

"You can bring a horticulture, but you can't make her think." - Dorothy Parker

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Not getting it.

 

[chansen]

Not getting it.

The Dorothy Parker line? Probably for the best.

 

[Luce NDs]

Are horticulturalists like vegetarians or just vegetables?

Such is the greening of the earth in one ancient myth! Finally dying people have a cause ... or rational for living after all the chit was thrown ...

 

[revjohn]

A cognitively aware person with a disability is competent to request suicide.

Competent to request, yes. Be automatically given, no.

What is missing is looking at why they might feel that way other than symptoms.

While that may be true what evidence do you have, other than your fear, that doctors will accept any symptoms presented as justifying death?

I am worried very much about people who might choose suicide but wouldn't if their circumstances were different or given the opportunity to be different.

I think we all hear that you are worried about that. None of us have seen anything which justifies that fear. You seem to think that somebody with spina bifida, for example, who might consider asking for help in dying will have folk tripping all over themselves for the chance to help with that death. That nobody will ask why or want to see if reasons presented will be addressed in anyway. And why do you think that? Because nobody cares, or gets it, and able-bodied people hate persons with disabilities so intensely that we are itching to kill you all off. Not only that persons with disabilities who don't follow in lockstep with you are self-hating persons (I'm guessing) with disabilities who also want to see all people with disabilities eradicated. Either that or they are individuals corrupted by politics to the degree that they will sell-out to the able-bodied monsters conspiring to annihilate them.

That has nothing to do with competence it has to do with existing disadvantage.

Baloney. The legislation at play is primarily about competence. Which is what was ruled by the Supreme Court in their declaration. That is why the blanket prohibition was struck down. They did not announce open season they said there should be a door in it. Nothing more than that. Nothing different from that.

Who gets to walk through the door is the legislation they are hoping for in a year's time. The Supreme Court doesn't create laws they rule on their constitutionality. In their opinion they felt the blanket prohibition infringed upon charter rights. They did not say there can be no reasonable limitations designed to protect the common good. They said that the blanket prohibition was not reasonable. They didn't say that it was suddenly reasonable for anyone to commit suicide or ask for a doctors help in dying.

If this ruling included "guys with bushy beards" maybe you'd be worried too - as a minority demographic.

I wouldn't be worried at all. There isn't a line up of people begging the government for permission to exterminate us. Nor do we sit around moping that we wish we were dead. In that I suspect we aren't different from persons with disabilities so there would no increase in threat to my safety if big bushy beards were listed. I'd be just as safe after such legislation as I was before.

The disability community is not a bunch of sick people. It's a group of people with wide ranging impairments who identify with one another by nature of social disadvantage. It just refers to a protected minority group of persons. Who are now included as reasons - diagnoses instead of people - that one might choose suicide.

Not quite. You can ask for such assistance it isn't a given that you will be granted such assistance. Doctors actually have the right to refuse to participate in such treatment. Of course I don't suspect all doctors of secretly wishing to eliminate the presence of persons with disability from society so I don't imagine them scheming and salivating for such opportunity.

 

[Void]

Interesting ideas to think over, but...Who appointed you our professor of morality to give pop quizzes?

These are your words, so apparently, you have.
Let me rephrase my words for you, then. I ask questions. I try to ask questions that invite people to think. It is a part of my nature. I thought I had found a lightly humorous way of providing a warning to the people of this forum that I will continue to challenge them with questions. Sometimes asking `thinking' questions initially causes discord, but for me, it is always done with the intent of pointing out that no matter what, we are all in this together - rocks, trees, nebula, quarks, even horticulturalists! It's up to each of us to make life, which includes death, better for everyone.
There seem to be many caring, sentient beings on this forum. I think most, if not all of them have a genuine desire for a better world - easier for ALL people. And yes, everyone here is unique. So there are issues that are a little `closer to home' for each individual. I saw in this forum, a terrific resource and a place for shared ideas. People helping people. It is.
If you wish to be adversarial, I cannot change that. Fear mongering and anger have a very poor track record over the past few millennia. I will employ a different method. It is inclusive. I continue to work at making myself a better person, and invite anyone else to do the same. I will continue to work towards a better human experience for all. I will not try to define ALL. All is all. It's a quiet revolution and for now, please accept that I am working for you.

“As long as you think that the cause of your problem is “out there”—as long as you think that anyone or anything is responsible for your suffering—the situation is hopeless. It means that you are forever in the role of victim, that you’re suffering in paradise.” - Byron Katie