What is sin?

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Witch said:
Well not being a sinner myself, and not being in need of any salvation, it's kind of difficult for me to understand this need some people have for sin.
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So you are absolutely, utterly without fault in your human and other relationships? You have never acted selfishly or unwisely or disrepected another person?

If you use a narrow definition of Sin as what Christians normally mean by it (an inherited "curse" or a failure to live in God's perfection), then you are quite correct. I am with you on not being a sinner in that sense.

However, if you look at the relational definition of sin that some of us have discussed, I'd say that few if any human beings can claim to be without "sin" even if that "sin" does not match up with a traditional idea of "sin". Original Sin then becomes a metaphor for the notion that we can do better, that we are not "perfect" in our relationships nor can we be. It is about recognizing and removing the log in our own eye before removing the speck from our siblings, as a wise man once suggested. Grace does not come from a remote God but from recognizing that we are not better than others and extending forgiveness and help to them.
 
Witch said:
It's real simple.

Show god exists, and you can have objective morality.

Fail to show God exists, and you can only have subjective morality.

Since no one to date has ever been able to show god exists, the burden of proof appears to lie with you...... Good luck with that.
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Witch, we "live and move and breathe" within the body of God, our Planetary Logos, is that still only subjective proof of God?
 
Mendalla said:
So you are absolutely, utterly without fault in your human and other relationships? You have never acted selfishly or unwisely or disrepected another person?

If you use a narrow definition of Sin as what Christians normally mean by it (an inherited "curse" or a failure to live in God's perfection), then you are quite correct. I am with you on not being a sinner in that sense.

However, if you look at the relational definition of sin that some of us have discussed, I'd say that few if any human beings can claim to be without "sin" even if that "sin" does not match up with a traditional idea of "sin". Original Sin then becomes a metaphor for the notion that we can do better, that we are not "perfect" in our relationships nor can we be. It is about recognizing and removing the log in our own eye before removing the speck from our siblings, as a wise man once suggested. Grace does not come from a remote God but from recognizing that we are not better than others and extending forgiveness and help to them.
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This is where I have absolutely no respect for Christianity, where it starts equating our lack of perfection with sin. This has all the trappings of a scam. This is using people's regrets and consciences against them. The fact that we make mistakes or have regrets is not a bad thing. What would be terrible is if we didn't regret and didn't feel guilty for our misdeeds. But Christianity often uses those emotions and regrets against us, to drive a perceived demand for a God and/or saviour to take away those personal failings. It's a disgusting, arrogant scam.
 
The notion that people need a god in order to be moral is a huge problem for me. Do you also still need a parent to tell you what to do? To me, that is what is happening, it is a parental relationship. Okay, so it is often "god the father" and that says a lot doesn't it. A lot of evil has been done in the name of god. Is that sin somehow exempt?

Why can't non-believers be moral?
 
Neo said:
We learn from our mistakes, why is that such a bad notion?
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No, no, no. Christianity is not about learning from your mistakes. It's more about having those mistakes forgiven. Except, not really. Not by the one you may have wronged (which would be great), but by someone you perceive as much more important, even if he isn't.
 
chansen said:
No, no, no. Christianity is not about learning from your mistakes. It's more about having those mistakes forgiven. Except, not really. Not by the one you may have wronged (which would be great), but by someone you perceive as much more important, even if he isn't.
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Which is odd actually, considering that Jesus himself told his followers to "be perfect", which to me says 'walk the path to perfection and don't rely on others to do it for you.'
 
Hey, if you want to say that I'm wrong and that Christianity is not largely about forgiveness from sin, I'm happy to just let my argument rest there.
 
Kimmio said:
A mistake that hurts someone(s), including ourselves. I don't think it's just "missing the mark" in every sense because I could be playing a friendly game of basketball and miss a hoop because I didn't line up my aim but I wouldn't say that I sinned.
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Yes, Kimmio, a sin is a severe mistake, like hurting ourselves or others, including our fellow creatures of the plant and animal world. Unfortunately, violating our natural environment is not a "sin" in the scriptural sense, and therefore not regarded as a wrong by some religious people.
 
chansen said:
Hey, if you want to say that I'm wrong and that Christianity is not largely about forgiveness from sin, I'm happy to just let my argument rest there.
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Only the young and naive Christians see it "largely" and primarily about forgiveness. I believe the secret message is more like "save yourselves". In other words, we are all part and parcel of something bigger, become aware of it!
 
Hermann said:
Yes, Kimmio, a sin is a severe mistake, like hurting ourselves or others, including our fellow creatures of the plant and animal world. Unfortunately, violating our natural environment is not a "sin" in the scriptural sense, and therefore not regarded as a wrong by some religious people.
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In the long run it is but no one regards, let's say, driving their cars as as sin at the time- but then mass dependency on oil has a connection to the environment that all people rely on, has led to wars, etc. and people are realizing that now.
 
Kimmio said:
I also think we are born to make mistakes, as the cliche goes, so we learn.
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Yes, Kimmio, I think the process of evolution is, among other things, a process of learning by mistakes. Making mistakes, and learning from them is an essential part of the process of evolution, as well as any creative process.
 
Waterfall said:
You call it a scam, I call it a revelation.
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Were it a "revelation", there would be more to demonstrate that. Christians would be demonstrably better people. They would be happier and more successful. No one would leave Christianity for non-belief. None of these things are true. Quickly now, people are leaving faith.
 
Hermann said:
Yes, Kimmio, I think the process of evolution is, among other things, a process of learning by mistakes. Making mistakes, and learning from them is an essential part of the process of evolution, as well as any creative process.
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No, because evolution is not a conscious process. The "mistakes" made by evolution do not survive. If evolution learned from mistakes, it wouldn't make those mistakes again. But it does.
 
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