The Rev. Vosper Again

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Mendalla said:
The downside of that approach is that no precedent gets set. A clear decision one way or another would provide guidance the next time. If they wait out her retirement, then the next time a minister's theology comes under scrutiny, they'll be muddling through again.
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They haven't *not* muddled through this one. I really think a number of people who are supposed to be in charge of this or part of this, just want it to go away. They can't convince anyone to sit on the panel and by now they have to be aware of how awkward it looks. No one is saying anything, and mercifully, there is no media coverage of the feet dragging. I'm not aware of any future dates being "held" by either side.

Maybe there are dates in mind this fall. There has to be some dates set soon, or this will slip into the winter again, and someone will have to admit that it will never happen. It won't happen in December because of schedules. If they don't get it done by November, I think we can confidently stick a fork in it.
 
We had a few people in Presbytery that we all for sending a letter to GC to support firing the Vosper character ...

This led to a little response from some of us on what God, love, nothing ... observation, vision, science and agnosticism meant to them as compared to a spread of ontological concerns. It became apparent to some that there is a vast field of perspective regarding these words that were pretty poorly understood ... especially across the field of time ...

This means nothing to those stuck in the present and presence of only their private self ... anything beyond that is dark and strange ... like unseen angels ... few see the cognizance of such impacts, however stunning ...

Thus without mental projection we never learn about what's out there ... especially if we believe knowledge and wisdom in common folk to be a devil of a thing ... thus in a world of condensed love and gravitas ... knowledge is x-spelt ... a Celtic grain and the "x" means something quite different than one might expect! XO's go along with IO's in another domain of psyche ... however some of us can't think about it ... because of unknowns ... do passions do that when inappropriately set free?

Yet total free wile is the target ... thus process of intelligent is beyond us ...
 
Thanks, Pinga. It's not like I have the ability to ask that question there. :censored:

Interesting comment from Lee Perry:
She has been making the rounds with media in the States, lately. But it seems that all we have had is silence in terms of any resolution. I am disappointed in how this has been dealt with at the regional and congregational levels. Her presence should have offered us an opportunity for serious, critical discussions about the very nature of our UCC theism; how many congregations are moving to introduce so much secular content, that it almost feels like a transformation has taken place, quietly. So many of the newer attendees and adherents, continue to refuse to take the oath and creed to join UCC as members. There seems to be so much effort to meld the traditional with the so-called modern sense of spirituality, that there is little in the way of true understanding, or honesty of what the UCC stands for, from a theological p.o.v., or how many ministers and student ministers, and members or attendees, define God. If Gretta had not thrown out a lot of the trappings of the traditional worship, would she have been so villified? She managed for many years to survive and lead, quietly. As a member, I have struggled with the issue of whether she should continue, given her own conscience and conflict, to serve within the laity of UCC. That she wants to continue is a source of challenge to all of us. Perhaps the quiet changes within congregational services have more to do with the questioning than any answers that the church brings.
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Bold is mine. Is this a thing? Are newer attendees not taking the oath and creed to become members? Has anyone looked at the reasons and the numbers?
 
Not that I have heard of, at least not in our congregation. It could be she is referring to adherents...that is different, and they ahve always existed.
 
The comment referred to is anecdotal, of course. The truth is that there have always been lots of people in United Churches who choose to be adherents rather than members. Membership really doesn't have that many privileges. So whether people are "refusing" to become members or just not seeing the need to become members is the question - and the difference is not a matter of mere semantics. In my context, there's no shortage of adherents, but we also have people become members on a regular basis as well.

I do think that "joining" in general is a little bit out of fashion these days. Ask any service club in any community and they'll share similar stories to what you hear in church about how difficult it is to get people to become involved and commit.
 
Julie Graham said:
Does anyone [know] who we should write to if we want to raise concerns about this seemingly endless, and very unfair, delay?
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What I want to write in reply is, "What makes you think they will ever get around to reading your letter?"
 
revsdd said:
The truth is that there have always been lots of people in United Churches who choose to be adherents rather than members.
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Ditto with UU'ism, though we call them "friends" rather than "adherents". The main difference with us is voting rights and the ability to serve on the official board, though in some congregations, those go hand-in-hand with expectations around giving. I don't think the tendency of some to remain at the "friend" level has much to do with theology and more to do with how committed they feel and whether they want to become involved in congregational governance beyond doing legwork for the committees.
 
From your FB post, Pinga, there seems less activity from Gretta's opponents compared to posts from two or three years ago. Now it's mostly friends of Gretta posting, along with people who seem less sure that Rev. Vosper has to go. That's encouraging, and maybe a further indication that there is little appetite for an ouster and predictable fight with supporters of Rev. Vosper.
 
Or...it is just post GC quiet. we shall see once we know who to write to..that info isn't forthcomingyet - or I don't think it is, will double check
 
Maybe a little of both, though in previous years the opponents of Rev. Vosper didn't exhibit any preference for a time of year to call for her removal. Indeed, there was a lot of anti-Vosper sentiment immediately following the last GC, not long after the review process started. With two GCs over since the beginning of the process, and almost a full year passing since the last appeal was denied, the energy level of the opposition just doesn't seem to be there.
 
chansen said:
Maybe a little of both, though in previous years the opponents of Rev. Vosper didn't exhibit any preference for a time of year to call for her removal. Indeed, there was a lot of anti-Vosper sentiment immediately following the last GC, not long after the review process started. With two GCs over since the beginning of the process, and almost a full year passing since the last appeal was denied, the energy level of the opposition just doesn't seem to be there.
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The gods are deflated? Flat out un-rounded ...
 
chansen said:
Maybe a little of both, though in previous years the opponents of Rev. Vosper didn't exhibit any preference for a time of year to call for her removal. Indeed, there was a lot of anti-Vosper sentiment immediately following the last GC, not long after the review process started. With two GCs over since the beginning of the process, and almost a full year passing since the last appeal was denied, the energy level of the opposition just doesn't seem to be there.
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I begin to think that the church at large has looked at the bleeding of the denomination in terms of ministry 'units' closing and amalgamating, etc., and have decided that a 'functioning congregation' is a definite asset. (BTW , has anyone seen Paradox recently?)
 
BetteTheRed said:
I begin to think that the church at large has looked at the bleeding of the denomination in terms of ministry 'units' closing and amalgamating, etc., and have decided that a 'functioning congregation' is a definite asset.
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I wonder also with the passing of time and the examples of the sort of political and social bulls**t coming from so many churches that have outward professions of extreme belief in God, if more people aren't saying to themselves, "Well, at least West Hill doesn't make us look like ignorant jerks by association."
 
Mendalla said:
Profile says she was last seen on July 17 but she often takes a Wonderbreak in the summer so we may see her back as the year wears on.
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Hi All! Just popping in from time to time over the summer months.

As usual, there is no end to the speculation about the lengthy delay and what might be happening behind the scenes :)

Gretta herself seems to expect that the hearing will eventually take place. She has recently posted on FB that she has returned to her pulpit following a four month leave of absence and she predicts she will be spending 50% of her time getting ready for her "heresy trial" (her words, not mine).

No doubt the delay has been difficult for Gretta and her congregation.

They are not alone in hoping for a resolution of some sort.
 
On the United Church FB page (public group) there is a suggestion that Rev Marg McKechnie might be the chair of the Judicial Review Committee. Anyone have any further information about this?
 
Carolla said:
Didn't hear anything at GC about it. There were a few proposals regarding theology & 'essential agreement' meaning that seem to resurface periodically & were referred to a standing committee for 'study' and recommendations. Lots in the church are asking for changes ... so we'll see what happens. Patience ...
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Here is the link . . .
Decisions on Theology
 
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