God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

[GeoFee]

Hi,

That is believe in Jesus Christ and God has said that those are the ones he has chosen.

Believe or follow?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I was an atheist, like you. Lunch hour in high school, I did mock blasphemous sermons with a little red bible I got in elementary school. I was entertaining.

But I became a Christian because of evidence. There are lots of books and testimonies that point to evidence for God.

I have my own experiences as well that convince me I am right, and believe me in the early days of my conversion, I held that maybe I am experiencing an aneurysm or some health crisis.

But I know 100’s of people who experience the world as I do. People I live and trust. We are not all lying to each other.

Darwin is dead.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Hi,
Believe or follow?

It’s the same thing to me.
I get that you want to separate them because you think your righteousness will be sufficient.

 

[chansen]

I was an atheist, like you. Lunch hour in high school, I did mock blasphemous sermons with a little red bible I got in elementary school. I was entertaining.

But I became a Christian because of evidence. There are lots of books and testimonies that point to evidence for God.

I have my own experiences as well that convince me I am right, and believe me in the early days of my conversion, I held that maybe I am experiencing an aneurysm or some health crisis.

But I know 100’s of people who experience the world as I do. People I live and trust. We are not all lying to each other.

Darwin is dead.

There are conflicting books and testimonies for every god and religion ever invented. You aren't plugged into some awesome truth - you've just picked a side in something resembling a holy version of cola wars - a meaningless battle for the top position among distributors of empty calories.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

SO the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, known to our Jewish neighbours for centuries, the God known by Jesus of Nazareth and his closest friends, is not God? Or is God only properly understood by people who follow the Christian understanding and not by those who continue to follow a Judaic understanding?

Aren’t you paid to know this stuff?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

There are conflicting books and testimonies for every god and religion ever invented. You aren't plugged into some awesome truth - you've just picked a side in something resembling a holy version of cola wars - a meaningless battle for the top position among distributors of empty calories.

I take my stand based on evidence. You based on lack of evidence. And because I was once where you are, I can understand your thinking.

If you met God, you would pass over to my position. Not the flakey in between that you like to promote in the UCC.

 

[Northwind]

I guess the same thing that happens to those who hear about Jesus and still reject him. The same thing that happens to those who judge God by their own standards.

The same thing that happens to false followers who think it is wrong to go out and share the good news. Because only by hearing the good news will they ever be saved.

That's a pretty ridiculous and arrogant way to view faith. That fits with what @PilgrimsProgress said about a Linus god and about a human made god with power and control. I'd rather be an atheist with @chansen that follow that kind of path. He says it well:

your claims are empty and your faith is stupid

 

[Jaebius]

I’m a Christian. Any religion whose god rejects Jesus is not God.

I feel the Jews are worshipping the right God. Some have even accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

 

[Jaebius]

There are conflicting books and testimonies for every god and religion ever invented. You aren't plugged into some awesome truth - you've just picked a side in something resembling a holy version of cola wars - a meaningless battle for the top position among distributors of empty calories.

If it's cola wars, then Christianity is Coca-Cola, cuz Coke is it.

 

[revjohn]

Is this the only explanation, because it doesn't sit well with me.

Clearly, it isn't the only explanation.

Now before you mention that God doesn't exist to make me feel less comfortable

God doesn't even exist to make us feel more comfortable.

God exists.

What is underconsideration is how God relates to humanity and exercises God's sovereignty.

I realize we have to atone for doing wrong against ourselves and others

If only we could. That is part of what is at issue. Does humanity have the ability to atone for its own sin or, must God atone on our behalf?

Where Christianity argues for Salvation by Grace alone it acknowledges that humanity has completely and utterly lost its ability to atone for its sin. Where Christianity argues for Participatory Salvation by works it acknowledges that humanity retains control over its own salvation.

and God forgives

Or God judges. That is the freedom afforded to God via God's sovereignty.

how can it be right to say some are elect and then create others who are not the elect when the only thing separating them is that they were chosen prior to being created?

It can be right when the election of individuals is left up to God's freedom to choose rather than insisting that there is some way that election can be earned.

It does make God appear evil.......to purposely lead us into temptation and putting the blame on humans when God placed a tree in the garden that could lead us into temptation from disobedience when He Himself says only He is good seems contradictory.

In the Garden before the fall Adam and Eve are not morally corrupted. They do, as a matter of fact have the freedom to choose between obedience (continued life) or disobedience (death). They chose disobedience (death). That effectively kills the freedom to good humanity enjoyed. Once destroyed there is no longer freedom to good.

God doesn't tempt Adam and Eve.

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve.

Both Adam and Eve remembered the instruction given by God, they were aware of the consequences. Once chosen, they cannot unchoose.

There was no necessity for eating of the tree. There was plenty of food available for them. They fell prey to their own vanity and because of that they disregarded the clear instruction that they knew.

In their defence Adam blamed God and the Eve. Eve blamed the serpent. None took responsibility for their own deeds or actions or motives.

That dog won't hunt.

 

[GordW]

Aren’t you paid to know this stuff?

I will make my question plain. In your view of the world, do Jews and Christians worship the same God? Because your arrogant claim earlier in the thread suggests that Jews, by virtue of not accepting Jesus as Messiah, do not. Which would go totally against Scripture

 

[Jaebius]

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

When Aaron made the golden calf, which god were they following?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

When Jesus before Pilate, and all shouted crucify him, which god were they following?

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

I will make my question plain. In your view of the world, do Jews and Christians worship the same God? Because your arrogant claim earlier in the thread suggests that Jews, by virtue of not accepting Jesus as Messiah, do not. Which would go totally against Scripture

Ok so give me the sporting scripture.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Phones are dumb

 

[unsafe]

Jae ---your quote -----Hmm... There is Romans 9 to reflect on, which speaks on God's Sovereign choice.

unsafe say
Many people use this as if it is talking about Salvation it is not -----it is about God's selection to bring about His Sovereign Plan which we have no choice in ----We Humans cannot and will not have free choice to change any of God's Sovereign plans -----

unsafe says ------This is from Romans 9 ------this is not about Salvation ---it is about God's Promise to Abraham ------Read what it is saying -----Just posting one section of the chapter ------

Romans 9 (GW)
Paul’s Concern for the Jewish People

9 As a Christian, I’m telling you the truth. I’m not lying. The Holy Spirit, along with my own thoughts, supports me in this. 2 I have deep sorrow and endless heartache. 3 I wish I could be condemned and cut off from Christ for the sake of others who, like me, are Jewish by birth. 4 They are Israelites, God’s adopted children. They have the Lord’s glory, the pledges Moses’ Teachings, the true worship, and the promises. 5 The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

6 Now it is not as though God’s word has failed. Clearly, not everyone descended from Israel is part of Israel

7 or a descendant of Abraham. However, as Scripture says, “Through Isaac your descendants will carry on your name.”

8 This means that children born by natural descent from Abraham are not necessarily God’s children. Instead, children born by the promise are considered Abraham’s descendants.

9 For example, this is what the promise said, “I will come back at the right time, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 The same thing happened to Rebekah. Rebekah became pregnant by our ancestor Isaac. 11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do. 13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”



unsafe says ----Reading the Previous Chapters helps to establish what Paul is addressing ------ this is from Romans 1 ----unsafe is just posting these 2 verses ----Read all here ----
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1 - GOD’S WORD Translation

Romans 1 (GW)

Greeting
1 From Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and appointed to spread the Good News of God.

2 (God had already promised this Good News through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures.

5 Through him we have received God’s kindness and the privilege of being apostles who bring people from every nation to the obedience that is associated with faith. This is for the honor of his name. 6 You are among those who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ.)

16 I’m not ashamed of the Good News. It is God’s power to save everyone who believes, Jews first and Greeks as well. 17 God’s approval is revealed in this Good News. This approval begins and ends with faith as Scripture says, “The person who has God’s approval will live by faith.”



unsafe says --------so in Romans 1 we see that it is God's power to save everyone -------this approval with begin and end with Faith -------


Romans 2 (GW)
God Will Judge Everyone

.5 Since you are stubborn and don’t want to change the way you think and act, you are adding to the anger that God will have against you on that day when God vents his anger. At that time God will reveal that his decisions are fair. 6 He will pay all people back for what they have done. 7 He will give everlasting life to those who search for glory, honor, and immortality by persisting in doing what is good. But he will bring 8 anger and fury on those who, in selfish pride, refuse to believe the truth and who follow what is wrong.

9 There will be suffering and distress for every person who does evil, for Jews first and Greeks as well. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who does what is good, for Jews first and Greeks as well. 11 God does not play favorites.

24 They receive God’s approval freely by an act of his kindness through the price Christ Jesus paid to set us free from sin.

25 God showed that Christ is the throne of mercy where God’s approval is given through faith in Christ’s blood.



unsafe says -----Paul is using both the Old and New Testaments in Romans 1 through 9 to illustrate what he wants said -----



unsafe Posted -------.This is from Got questions ---- all I am just posting one section that pertains to Romans 9

Book of Romans - Bible Survey

connections: Paul uses several Old Testament people and events as illustrations of the glorious truths in the Book of Romans. Abraham believed and righteousness was imputed to him by his faith, not by his works (Romans 4:1-5).

In Romans 4:6-9,

Paul refers to David who reiterated the same truth: “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.

" Paul uses Adam to explain to the Romans the doctrine of inherited sin,

and he uses the story of Sarah and Isaac, the child of promise, to illustrate the principle of Christians being the children of the promise of the divine grace of God through Christ.

In chapters 9–11, Paul recounts the history of the nation of Israel and declares that God has not completely and finally rejected Israel


unsafe says
So Jae you can believe what you like but Romans 9 is not talking about God's Sovereign choice to save some people and not other ---It is about His Sovereign Plan which no human has a choice in ------verses 9-13 tell us that -----

9 For example, this is what the promise said, “I will come back at the right time, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 The same thing happened to Rebekah. Rebekah became pregnant by our ancestor Isaac.

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice,

12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do. 13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”


unsafe says ----verses 11 and 12
Worth repeating -----This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

That's a pretty ridiculous and arrogant way to view faith. That fits with what @PilgrimsProgress said about a Linus god and about a human made god with power and control. I'd rather be an atheist with @chansen that follow that kind of path. He says it well:

Your biblical teacher must be proud.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

I get that you want to separate them because you think your righteousness will be sufficient.

How do you know what I think? The idea that my righteousness is sufficient is not at all part of who I am or how I present myself in and through all my relations. My concern is with the practice of compassion, as in the agreement between Isaiah and Luke; which Jesus expresses in the Nazareth synagogue. According to Matthew this is the sole criteria on the day when sheep are separated from goats.

I take my stand based on evidence.

I take my stand on faith alone. As it is written (Habakkuk, Romans, Galatians and Hebrews): "the just shall live by faith." Doctrinal correctness means nothing at all to me. This without any concern for those on this side of eternity who will judge me according to their preferred reading and interpretation of the ancient text.

George

 

[GeoFee]

The Rabbi and the Soap Maker

There is an old Jewish tale about a soap maker who did not believe in God. One day as he was walking with a rabbi, he said, “There is something I cannot understand. We have had religion for thousands of years. But everywhere you look there is evil, corruption, dishonesty, injustice, pain, hunger, and violence. It appears that religion has not improved the world at all. So I ask you, what good is it?”

The rabbi did not answer for a time but continued walking with the soap maker. Eventually they approached a playground where children, covered in dust, were playing in the dirt.

“There is something I don’t understand,” the rabbi said. “Look at those children. We have had soap for thousands of years, and yet those children are filthy. What good is soap?”

The soap maker replied, “But rabbi, it isn’t fair to blame soap for these dirty children. Soap has to be used before it can accomplish its purpose.”

The rabbi smiled and said, “Exactly.”