BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Religion would be a much more honest activity if, as in the UCCan, there was no way to make any real money from it.
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airclean33
Well-Known Member
unsafe
Well-Known Member
unsafe says ---
The people like Mr Copeland and others own their Church ---it is their own business -----they are not employees ----they own their churches
Below are 2 articles that show what the Church is responsible to pay for their Pastor to have some luxury benefits ------
Here is an article that says when the Pastor preaches at another location who pays and for what -----responsibility is on the Church to foot the bill so where does the money come from ------well the congregation's funds I suspect ---The Church robbing the poor Folk to pay for the Pastor -----
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
Eventually, your church will have a guest preacher. Your pastor may be out of town or he needs time to focus on other areas of the church. When this happens, you are faced with the question, “How much should we pay the guest preacher?”
Most of us want to show the guest preacher our appreciation through an honorarium. We desire for him to feel valued and loved but still be good stewards of the church budget. It is a tension many church administrators feel.
Here are four guidelines I suggest for navigating this tension:
1. Cover travel.
As soon as the visiting preacher steps into his car or boards a plane, he becomes your guest. Plan to cover the flight or car mileage. The IRS’ current standard mileage rate is $0.56 per mile. I recommend reimbursing at that rate. Depending on the anticipated mileage, you may consider offering him a rental car.
2. Cover food.
Yes, he would be eating whether he was preaching at your church or staying at home. But he is your guest, and you are his host. A good host will take care of the food. If you are eating out with him, use your credit card. If he has a meal on his own, have him send the church the receipt and reimburse him.
3. Cover accommodations.
If the guest preacher has to stay overnight, pay for the accommodations. Having to stay overnight is not a perk for a guest pastor. It is a sacrifice he makes to speak at your church. Most would much rather be at home with their wife and kids. Be sure to cover any hotel costs.
4. Base the honorarium off your pastor’s salary (including housing allowance)
This is where most struggle because of the number of variables involved – audience size, number of services, and expected length of teaching all play a role.
unsafe says
Here is another article ------the Church is responsible to pay for the Ministry services
The Church’s Responsibility to Its Pastor - Ministrymaker
Ministry Expenses
Pastors should not have to take money out of their personal finances to do their job properly. Any expenses they need to minister effectively should be reimbursed over and above their salary. Below are a few types of ministry expenses that can be reimbursed.
Auto expenses. ------If the church isn’t able to provide a car for the pastor, along with the expenses to operate the car, it should reimburse his mileage. The IRS has a set amount that’s allotted per mile. Your pastor should receive at least that amount.
unsafe says ---OH --So here we see the Church is responsible to provide a car for the Minister along with expenses ---Oh my a luxury expense ----Where does the church get the money for that ---OH NO ---not from the peoples money they give surly------robbing the congregation of their money to pay for a car for the pastor to travel in -----
Conference expenses. ------There are usually one or two conferences per year in most denominations and fellowships. The pastor and his wife should attend these for their personal enrichment, to rekindle vision, for training, and accountability. This is an expense the church or ministry should take care of. If the church doesn’t have a credit card, receipts should be kept and everything that isn’t prepaid should be reimbursed.
unsafe says -----So here we see that the church is to pay for not only the Pastor to attend but his wife also to attend the conference ----again taking from the poor folk to pay for not only the pastor but his wife as well -----
Housing. -----The IRS says pastors can receive a housing allowance above their salary that is nontaxable. The only thing that must be paid on it is social security or self employment tax, unless they have been exempt from social security. The church or ministry should cover the pastor’s housing expenses above their salary. An accountant should be consulted to fully utilize this benefit.
unsafe says -----Here we see that Pastors get a house allowance that the church should provide ------and don't have to pay taxes on this luxury --funded by who -----the poor folk who give their hard earned money to help sustain the Church ----
Insurance.----- Insurance should be provided for pastors like any other professional. Many pastors and their families have suffered immense hardship and financial strain because they didn’t have health care. The church should do its best to provide comprehensive health care for their pastor. Also, the pastor’s family must be taken care of if unexpected tragedy strikes. God will bless the church and people who take care of the person God has given to shepherd them. The church should provide a term or universal life insurance policy on both the pastor and his wife. Make sure the value is sufficient to take care of the family in case of an untimely death.
unsafe says ----So here we see the church is responsible to pay for insurance for the pastor and family ---taking money from the poor folks that give their hard earned money to their church
Retirement. -----A retirement plan like a 401K, IRA or insurance policy should be taken out in the pastor’s name. Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.
unsafe says ------Wow--- the Church is responsible for a retirement plan for the pastor ----Again taken out of money given by the poor folk in the pews ------ and this last statement says it all -----Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.-----Here we have the Church robbing the very Pastor that they hire -----
unsafe says
So we see that the employer is to take care of it's employee by providing the necessary tools to do their job plus look after their personal well being ----and it comes out of what the congregations gives as well as other sources I would think -----
So people like Mr Copeland who are owners of their Church have a right to provide the necessary tools to do their jobs and look after their well being -----I would think -----and it is funded the same way the Regular Churches fund their Pastors provisions ------
If these people were running their Churches illegally they would be stopped or shut down by the proper authorities as would any Church -------that is my view -----
The people like Mr Copeland and others own their Church ---it is their own business -----they are not employees ----they own their churches
Below are 2 articles that show what the Church is responsible to pay for their Pastor to have some luxury benefits ------
Here is an article that says when the Pastor preaches at another location who pays and for what -----responsibility is on the Church to foot the bill so where does the money come from ------well the congregation's funds I suspect ---The Church robbing the poor Folk to pay for the Pastor -----
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
Eventually, your church will have a guest preacher. Your pastor may be out of town or he needs time to focus on other areas of the church. When this happens, you are faced with the question, “How much should we pay the guest preacher?”
Most of us want to show the guest preacher our appreciation through an honorarium. We desire for him to feel valued and loved but still be good stewards of the church budget. It is a tension many church administrators feel.
Here are four guidelines I suggest for navigating this tension:
1. Cover travel.
As soon as the visiting preacher steps into his car or boards a plane, he becomes your guest. Plan to cover the flight or car mileage. The IRS’ current standard mileage rate is $0.56 per mile. I recommend reimbursing at that rate. Depending on the anticipated mileage, you may consider offering him a rental car.
2. Cover food.
Yes, he would be eating whether he was preaching at your church or staying at home. But he is your guest, and you are his host. A good host will take care of the food. If you are eating out with him, use your credit card. If he has a meal on his own, have him send the church the receipt and reimburse him.
3. Cover accommodations.
If the guest preacher has to stay overnight, pay for the accommodations. Having to stay overnight is not a perk for a guest pastor. It is a sacrifice he makes to speak at your church. Most would much rather be at home with their wife and kids. Be sure to cover any hotel costs.
4. Base the honorarium off your pastor’s salary (including housing allowance)
This is where most struggle because of the number of variables involved – audience size, number of services, and expected length of teaching all play a role.
unsafe says
Here is another article ------the Church is responsible to pay for the Ministry services
The Church’s Responsibility to Its Pastor - Ministrymaker
Ministry Expenses
Pastors should not have to take money out of their personal finances to do their job properly. Any expenses they need to minister effectively should be reimbursed over and above their salary. Below are a few types of ministry expenses that can be reimbursed.
Auto expenses. ------If the church isn’t able to provide a car for the pastor, along with the expenses to operate the car, it should reimburse his mileage. The IRS has a set amount that’s allotted per mile. Your pastor should receive at least that amount.
unsafe says ---OH --So here we see the Church is responsible to provide a car for the Minister along with expenses ---Oh my a luxury expense ----Where does the church get the money for that ---OH NO ---not from the peoples money they give surly------robbing the congregation of their money to pay for a car for the pastor to travel in -----
Conference expenses. ------There are usually one or two conferences per year in most denominations and fellowships. The pastor and his wife should attend these for their personal enrichment, to rekindle vision, for training, and accountability. This is an expense the church or ministry should take care of. If the church doesn’t have a credit card, receipts should be kept and everything that isn’t prepaid should be reimbursed.
unsafe says -----So here we see that the church is to pay for not only the Pastor to attend but his wife also to attend the conference ----again taking from the poor folk to pay for not only the pastor but his wife as well -----
Housing. -----The IRS says pastors can receive a housing allowance above their salary that is nontaxable. The only thing that must be paid on it is social security or self employment tax, unless they have been exempt from social security. The church or ministry should cover the pastor’s housing expenses above their salary. An accountant should be consulted to fully utilize this benefit.
unsafe says -----Here we see that Pastors get a house allowance that the church should provide ------and don't have to pay taxes on this luxury --funded by who -----the poor folk who give their hard earned money to help sustain the Church ----
Insurance.----- Insurance should be provided for pastors like any other professional. Many pastors and their families have suffered immense hardship and financial strain because they didn’t have health care. The church should do its best to provide comprehensive health care for their pastor. Also, the pastor’s family must be taken care of if unexpected tragedy strikes. God will bless the church and people who take care of the person God has given to shepherd them. The church should provide a term or universal life insurance policy on both the pastor and his wife. Make sure the value is sufficient to take care of the family in case of an untimely death.
unsafe says ----So here we see the church is responsible to pay for insurance for the pastor and family ---taking money from the poor folks that give their hard earned money to their church
Retirement. -----A retirement plan like a 401K, IRA or insurance policy should be taken out in the pastor’s name. Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.
unsafe says ------Wow--- the Church is responsible for a retirement plan for the pastor ----Again taken out of money given by the poor folk in the pews ------ and this last statement says it all -----Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.-----Here we have the Church robbing the very Pastor that they hire -----
unsafe says
So we see that the employer is to take care of it's employee by providing the necessary tools to do their job plus look after their personal well being ----and it comes out of what the congregations gives as well as other sources I would think -----
So people like Mr Copeland who are owners of their Church have a right to provide the necessary tools to do their jobs and look after their well being -----I would think -----and it is funded the same way the Regular Churches fund their Pastors provisions ------
If these people were running their Churches illegally they would be stopped or shut down by the proper authorities as would any Church -------that is my view -----
Small-medium sized churches. Attendance at Sunday morning worship gatherings 50-200. Your point?
UCCanada ministers are paid a fair wage.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Don't think so, unsafe. Rich Christian ministries seem to get an absolute nod from the IRS in the U.S. I don't think there's any Canadian ministers with jets, although I stand to be corrected. Seems to point to the fact that the Canadian tax system understands the concept of "not for profit" better than our neighbours down south.
A jet. really? For any purpose other than to pose as an a**hole millionaire/billionaire? Really? You're defending this sort of s**t in the name of your religion? Yikes...
A jet. really? For any purpose other than to pose as an a**hole millionaire/billionaire? Really? You're defending this sort of s**t in the name of your religion? Yikes...
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Churches have a responsibility to provide for their pastors. They do not have a responsibility to turn their pastors into multimillionaires with mansions, luxury cars, private planes, etc.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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In fact, it might almost be argued, that if the congregation has a true responsibility to their pastor, they should be working on curbing said pastors' urges to become rich.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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We can only safely read Scripture—it is a dangerous book—if we are somehow sharing in the divine gaze of love. A life of prayer helps you develop a third eye that can read between the lines and find the golden thread which is moving toward inclusivity, mercy, and justice. I am sure that is what Paul means when he teaches that we must “know spiritual things in a spiritual way” (1 Corinthians 2:13). A hardened heart, a predisposition to judgment, a fear of God, any need to win or prove yourself right will corrupt and distort the most inspired and inspiring of Scriptures—just as they pollute every human conversation and relationship. Hateful people will find hateful verses to confirm their obsession with death. Loving people will find loving verses to call them into an even greater love of life. And both kinds of verses are in the Bible!
Adapted from Richard Rohr, Hierarchy of Truths: Jesus’ Use of Scripture (Center for Action and Contemplation: 2014), CD
Adapted from Richard Rohr, Hierarchy of Truths: Jesus’ Use of Scripture (Center for Action and Contemplation: 2014), CD
You lost me as soon as you said they "own" their churches.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Jae said:
Humility is a difficult concept for many. To be truly humble one must have an informed view of their own worth/importance. Pride and false humility are stumbling blocks for any individual, Christian or not.
An appeal to humbleness is not going to be persuasive until there is a better communal grasp of what it means to be humble.
Apart from that, I think that there are better grounds to make an appeal to Stewardship rather than Humbleness.
The reality is that a private jet is a staggering expense and is, more often than not a luxury rather than a necessity. Private jets burn through dollars even if all they do is sit in a hangar or on the tarmac at an airport. They can be an extraordinary convenience if one is suddenly called half-way across the country. Which is not something the vast majority of clergy are ever bound to experience and to be candid, a conference call is far more convenient and economical.
Unless the Pastor is also a pilot and ground crew there are another two or three individuals who need to be employed on a full-time basis. Renting a hangar is pretty pricey, owning a private hangar moreso. If the ministry has a private hangar and runway then they are on private land which the ministry must have purchased and needs to maintain.
Are these necessary expenses? For the most part they are most certainly not necessary expenses, they are convenient luxuries. If a ministry determines that the ministry is served best with these luxuries then that is a decision made by the ministry.
Most Churches would not consider these expenses since air-travel is relatively cheap. Certainly even a first-class seat on a commercial flight is a far more stewardly use of financial resources than is a private jet. The only advantage of the private jet or a private charter is convenience. Flying commercial airlines means you have to plan ahead to be at such and such a place on such and such a date. Crises and Emergencies cannot be planned.
Jet; is sometimes translated as a dark spewing ... like a chimney that smokes because of po' Eire ... a thought about pass'n thought or recognizance about emotions ... they can bounce like echoes and ego also mean a realization ... if overreached you could pass back into deeper darker waters like rivers disappearing into the Zea ... besides you don't wish authorities to believe your thinking ... you could then be in ominous waters ...
The noble beast despises thought ... thus rests! Other than hen scratching ...
The noble beast despises thought ... thus rests! Other than hen scratching ...
Conference calls are thus non convened due to rush? How inconvenient to stop this human race to be one end or the other ... be the neigh MS 've me ... nemesis put down by writ .. rite? Lo' form ...
revjohn
Well-Known Member
unsafe said:
Here are the guidelines set by The United Church of Canada
Minimum Salaries for Ministry Personnel 2018 said:
So, just to clarify, if I am asked by another pastoral charge of The United Church of Canada to preside over worship for them and the Pastoral Charge is 50km from where I live the numbers work out like this.
100km X 0.39/km (round-trip travel = $39.00
Daily rate for Visiting Ministry Personnell = $ 209.00
Total = $ 248.00
Depending on the Pastoral Charge I am either delivering one worship service or several. There is no change in the daily rate if I am serving a multiple point charge no matter how big. There will be a change to the travel since I must be reimbursed for miles travelled on the pastoral charge if I am presiding over worship in multiple preaching points.
The daily rate is actually set on a formula which takes into account all ministers in the denomination. The value is set on living group 1 (Minister's living in a Manse) Category F (Highest experience category for UCCAN Minister's not serving General Council directly).
It is also the minimum value (nobody can be paid less) and congregations are free to pay more if they find the request to pay more reasonable.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Luce NDs said:
Depends upon the court establishing the call. That said my experience at all levels of the Church is that Conference Calls are scheduled when A) the participants cover a large geographic area and paying travel for all to come together is considered poor stewardship or B) schedules of individual members do not facilitate a face to face meeting.
Luce NDs said:
Even where the Conference Call is the most stewardly option from a fiscal perspective I am not sure that we make our best decisions phone to phone. And sometimes technologies conflict and create more problems.
Growing pains I guess.
Something is always lost in phonetics about the roots of the communication ... considering what we don't know ... limited by certification? I've been certified something else by those desiring to do so ... a topic of interest to RD Laing ...
dreamerman
Well-Known Member
Unsafe is a follower of the health and wealth gospel. So when someone takes exception to a pastor buying a luxury jet she has to come to their defense. True-Christians have to have true- money or else the health and wealth gospel can't be preached.
dreamerman
Well-Known Member
God owns your money but Kenneth owns his church,
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Here is the thing People -----
We can be obsessed with bashing and trashing others who call themselves Christians -----all that shows in my view is that the ones bashing and trashing are the ones that are totally obsessed with money and stuff -----they take every opportunity to that they can to point out what is wrong with other Christians while they ignore that they themselves have misused God's money and stuff in their own lives at some point ------Bashing and trashing others does not come from God -----it is feeding the ego in that person -----God is quite capable of dealing with any people who misuse His Name to gain power --money and influence for themselves -----that is not our business ------and as True Christians we are to avoid ridiculing others ---we are called to keep an eye on ourselves and stay out of other peoples business -------it takes much just to keep an eye on ourselves -----the energy spent on focusing on others who we are displeased with takes us away from what God wants us to focus on which is ourselves ----making sure we are doing the right things in our won lives -----
verse 11 from below -----11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
1 Thessalonians 4:9-12(NKJV)
A Brotherly and Orderly Life
9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing
And here is the other thing -----the money that comes in from the congregation of any Church is used to buy cars ---pay insurance --pay for housing expenses --pay for conferences etc --etc ----so all churches do the same -----so the Regular Church is stealing from the poor folk to pay for ministry services no matter how you look at it ------Period Plus -----
I leave with this word from God ------
--------
Here we see Luke saying the same the same thing ----so we see it 2 times must be important in my view -------
Luke 6:42 (NKJV)
42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that isin your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
We can be obsessed with bashing and trashing others who call themselves Christians -----all that shows in my view is that the ones bashing and trashing are the ones that are totally obsessed with money and stuff -----they take every opportunity to that they can to point out what is wrong with other Christians while they ignore that they themselves have misused God's money and stuff in their own lives at some point ------Bashing and trashing others does not come from God -----it is feeding the ego in that person -----God is quite capable of dealing with any people who misuse His Name to gain power --money and influence for themselves -----that is not our business ------and as True Christians we are to avoid ridiculing others ---we are called to keep an eye on ourselves and stay out of other peoples business -------it takes much just to keep an eye on ourselves -----the energy spent on focusing on others who we are displeased with takes us away from what God wants us to focus on which is ourselves ----making sure we are doing the right things in our won lives -----
verse 11 from below -----11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
1 Thessalonians 4:9-12(NKJV)
A Brotherly and Orderly Life
9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,
12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing
And here is the other thing -----the money that comes in from the congregation of any Church is used to buy cars ---pay insurance --pay for housing expenses --pay for conferences etc --etc ----so all churches do the same -----so the Regular Church is stealing from the poor folk to pay for ministry services no matter how you look at it ------Period Plus -----
I leave with this word from God ------
Here we see Luke saying the same the same thing ----so we see it 2 times must be important in my view -------
Luke 6:42 (NKJV)
42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that isin your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.