BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Religion would be a much more honest activity if, as in the UCCan, there was no way to make any real money from it.
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Bigger the church, more people they can reach with less travel. Ergo, need for jet
QUOTE]--Well Hi THERE JAE Thanks for you return. No I think Red, you'll find there are more People in A church . Than around your Kitchen Table". All though it has been a wile, that I was in a United Church. There was a lot of good people there.
--
Hi Jae these Pastors, you KNOW" , how big is the church they preach to ?
Religion would be a much more honest activity if, as in the UCCan, there was no way to make any real money from it.
UCCanada ministers are paid a fair wage.
unsafe says ---
The people like Mr Copeland and others own their Church ---it is their own business -----they are not employees ----they own their churches
Below are 2 articles that show what the Church is responsible to pay for their Pastor to have some luxury benefits ------
Here is an article that says when the Pastor preaches at another location who pays and for what -----responsibility is on the Church to foot the bill so where does the money come from ------well the congregation's funds I suspect ---The Church robbing the poor Folk to pay for the Pastor -----
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
Eventually, your church will have a guest preacher. Your pastor may be out of town or he needs time to focus on other areas of the church. When this happens, you are faced with the question, “How much should we pay the guest preacher?”
Most of us want to show the guest preacher our appreciation through an honorarium. We desire for him to feel valued and loved but still be good stewards of the church budget. It is a tension many church administrators feel.
Here are four guidelines I suggest for navigating this tension:
1. Cover travel.
As soon as the visiting preacher steps into his car or boards a plane, he becomes your guest. Plan to cover the flight or car mileage. The IRS’ current standard mileage rate is $0.56 per mile. I recommend reimbursing at that rate. Depending on the anticipated mileage, you may consider offering him a rental car.
2. Cover food.
Yes, he would be eating whether he was preaching at your church or staying at home. But he is your guest, and you are his host. A good host will take care of the food. If you are eating out with him, use your credit card. If he has a meal on his own, have him send the church the receipt and reimburse him.
3. Cover accommodations.
If the guest preacher has to stay overnight, pay for the accommodations. Having to stay overnight is not a perk for a guest pastor. It is a sacrifice he makes to speak at your church. Most would much rather be at home with their wife and kids. Be sure to cover any hotel costs.
4. Base the honorarium off your pastor’s salary (including housing allowance)
This is where most struggle because of the number of variables involved – audience size, number of services, and expected length of teaching all play a role.
unsafe says
Here is another article ------the Church is responsible to pay for the Ministry services
The Church’s Responsibility to Its Pastor - Ministrymaker
Ministry Expenses
Pastors should not have to take money out of their personal finances to do their job properly. Any expenses they need to minister effectively should be reimbursed over and above their salary. Below are a few types of ministry expenses that can be reimbursed.
Auto expenses. ------If the church isn’t able to provide a car for the pastor, along with the expenses to operate the car, it should reimburse his mileage. The IRS has a set amount that’s allotted per mile. Your pastor should receive at least that amount.
unsafe says ---OH --So here we see the Church is responsible to provide a car for the Minister along with expenses ---Oh my a luxury expense ----Where does the church get the money for that ---OH NO ---not from the peoples money they give surly------robbing the congregation of their money to pay for a car for the pastor to travel in -----
Conference expenses. ------There are usually one or two conferences per year in most denominations and fellowships. The pastor and his wife should attend these for their personal enrichment, to rekindle vision, for training, and accountability. This is an expense the church or ministry should take care of. If the church doesn’t have a credit card, receipts should be kept and everything that isn’t prepaid should be reimbursed.
unsafe says -----So here we see that the church is to pay for not only the Pastor to attend but his wife also to attend the conference ----again taking from the poor folk to pay for not only the pastor but his wife as well -----
Housing. -----The IRS says pastors can receive a housing allowance above their salary that is nontaxable. The only thing that must be paid on it is social security or self employment tax, unless they have been exempt from social security. The church or ministry should cover the pastor’s housing expenses above their salary. An accountant should be consulted to fully utilize this benefit.
unsafe says -----Here we see that Pastors get a house allowance that the church should provide ------and don't have to pay taxes on this luxury --funded by who -----the poor folk who give their hard earned money to help sustain the Church ----
Insurance.----- Insurance should be provided for pastors like any other professional. Many pastors and their families have suffered immense hardship and financial strain because they didn’t have health care. The church should do its best to provide comprehensive health care for their pastor. Also, the pastor’s family must be taken care of if unexpected tragedy strikes. God will bless the church and people who take care of the person God has given to shepherd them. The church should provide a term or universal life insurance policy on both the pastor and his wife. Make sure the value is sufficient to take care of the family in case of an untimely death.
unsafe says ----So here we see the church is responsible to pay for insurance for the pastor and family ---taking money from the poor folks that give their hard earned money to their church
Retirement. -----A retirement plan like a 401K, IRA or insurance policy should be taken out in the pastor’s name. Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.
unsafe says ------Wow--- the Church is responsible for a retirement plan for the pastor ----Again taken out of money given by the poor folk in the pews ------ and this last statement says it all -----Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.-----Here we have the Church robbing the very Pastor that they hire -----
unsafe says
So we see that the employer is to take care of it's employee by providing the necessary tools to do their job plus look after their personal well being ----and it comes out of what the congregations gives as well as other sources I would think -----
So people like Mr Copeland who are owners of their Church have a right to provide the necessary tools to do their jobs and look after their well being -----I would think -----and it is funded the same way the Regular Churches fund their Pastors provisions ------
If these people were running their Churches illegally they would be stopped or shut down by the proper authorities as would any Church -------that is my view -----
You lost me as soon as you said they "own" their churches.unsafe says ---
The people like Mr Copeland and others own their Church ---it is their own business -----they are not employees ----they own their churches
Below are 2 articles that show what the Church is responsible to pay for their Pastor to have some luxury benefits ------
Here is an article that says when the Pastor preaches at another location who pays and for what -----responsibility is on the Church to foot the bill so where does the money come from ------well the congregation's funds I suspect ---The Church robbing the poor Folk to pay for the Pastor -----
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
How Much Should You Pay a Guest Preacher?
Eventually, your church will have a guest preacher. Your pastor may be out of town or he needs time to focus on other areas of the church. When this happens, you are faced with the question, “How much should we pay the guest preacher?”
Most of us want to show the guest preacher our appreciation through an honorarium. We desire for him to feel valued and loved but still be good stewards of the church budget. It is a tension many church administrators feel.
Here are four guidelines I suggest for navigating this tension:
1. Cover travel.
As soon as the visiting preacher steps into his car or boards a plane, he becomes your guest. Plan to cover the flight or car mileage. The IRS’ current standard mileage rate is $0.56 per mile. I recommend reimbursing at that rate. Depending on the anticipated mileage, you may consider offering him a rental car.
2. Cover food.
Yes, he would be eating whether he was preaching at your church or staying at home. But he is your guest, and you are his host. A good host will take care of the food. If you are eating out with him, use your credit card. If he has a meal on his own, have him send the church the receipt and reimburse him.
3. Cover accommodations.
If the guest preacher has to stay overnight, pay for the accommodations. Having to stay overnight is not a perk for a guest pastor. It is a sacrifice he makes to speak at your church. Most would much rather be at home with their wife and kids. Be sure to cover any hotel costs.
4. Base the honorarium off your pastor’s salary (including housing allowance)
This is where most struggle because of the number of variables involved – audience size, number of services, and expected length of teaching all play a role.
unsafe says
Here is another article ------the Church is responsible to pay for the Ministry services
The Church’s Responsibility to Its Pastor - Ministrymaker
Ministry Expenses
Pastors should not have to take money out of their personal finances to do their job properly. Any expenses they need to minister effectively should be reimbursed over and above their salary. Below are a few types of ministry expenses that can be reimbursed.
Auto expenses. ------If the church isn’t able to provide a car for the pastor, along with the expenses to operate the car, it should reimburse his mileage. The IRS has a set amount that’s allotted per mile. Your pastor should receive at least that amount.
unsafe says ---OH --So here we see the Church is responsible to provide a car for the Minister along with expenses ---Oh my a luxury expense ----Where does the church get the money for that ---OH NO ---not from the peoples money they give surly------robbing the congregation of their money to pay for a car for the pastor to travel in -----
Conference expenses. ------There are usually one or two conferences per year in most denominations and fellowships. The pastor and his wife should attend these for their personal enrichment, to rekindle vision, for training, and accountability. This is an expense the church or ministry should take care of. If the church doesn’t have a credit card, receipts should be kept and everything that isn’t prepaid should be reimbursed.
unsafe says -----So here we see that the church is to pay for not only the Pastor to attend but his wife also to attend the conference ----again taking from the poor folk to pay for not only the pastor but his wife as well -----
Housing. -----The IRS says pastors can receive a housing allowance above their salary that is nontaxable. The only thing that must be paid on it is social security or self employment tax, unless they have been exempt from social security. The church or ministry should cover the pastor’s housing expenses above their salary. An accountant should be consulted to fully utilize this benefit.
unsafe says -----Here we see that Pastors get a house allowance that the church should provide ------and don't have to pay taxes on this luxury --funded by who -----the poor folk who give their hard earned money to help sustain the Church ----
Insurance.----- Insurance should be provided for pastors like any other professional. Many pastors and their families have suffered immense hardship and financial strain because they didn’t have health care. The church should do its best to provide comprehensive health care for their pastor. Also, the pastor’s family must be taken care of if unexpected tragedy strikes. God will bless the church and people who take care of the person God has given to shepherd them. The church should provide a term or universal life insurance policy on both the pastor and his wife. Make sure the value is sufficient to take care of the family in case of an untimely death.
unsafe says ----So here we see the church is responsible to pay for insurance for the pastor and family ---taking money from the poor folks that give their hard earned money to their church
Retirement. -----A retirement plan like a 401K, IRA or insurance policy should be taken out in the pastor’s name. Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.
unsafe says ------Wow--- the Church is responsible for a retirement plan for the pastor ----Again taken out of money given by the poor folk in the pews ------ and this last statement says it all -----Some churches put retirement plans in the church’s name and the pastor is eventually left with nothing. This should never happen.-----Here we have the Church robbing the very Pastor that they hire -----
unsafe says
So we see that the employer is to take care of it's employee by providing the necessary tools to do their job plus look after their personal well being ----and it comes out of what the congregations gives as well as other sources I would think -----
So people like Mr Copeland who are owners of their Church have a right to provide the necessary tools to do their jobs and look after their well being -----I would think -----and it is funded the same way the Regular Churches fund their Pastors provisions ------
If these people were running their Churches illegally they would be stopped or shut down by the proper authorities as would any Church -------that is my view -----
Jae said:Jesus called his followers to humbleness. Surely that should stand as a call to more than simply saying, "Thanks for the private jet."
Humility is a difficult concept for many. To be truly humble one must have an informed view of their own worth/importance. Pride and false humility are stumbling blocks for any individual, Christian or not.
An appeal to humbleness is not going to be persuasive until there is a better communal grasp of what it means to be humble.
Apart from that, I think that there are better grounds to make an appeal to Stewardship rather than Humbleness.
The reality is that a private jet is a staggering expense and is, more often than not a luxury rather than a necessity. Private jets burn through dollars even if all they do is sit in a hangar or on the tarmac at an airport. They can be an extraordinary convenience if one is suddenly called half-way across the country. Which is not something the vast majority of clergy are ever bound to experience and to be candid, a conference call is far more convenient and economical.
Unless the Pastor is also a pilot and ground crew there are another two or three individuals who need to be employed on a full-time basis. Renting a hangar is pretty pricey, owning a private hangar moreso. If the ministry has a private hangar and runway then they are on private land which the ministry must have purchased and needs to maintain.
Are these necessary expenses? For the most part they are most certainly not necessary expenses, they are convenient luxuries. If a ministry determines that the ministry is served best with these luxuries then that is a decision made by the ministry.
Most Churches would not consider these expenses since air-travel is relatively cheap. Certainly even a first-class seat on a commercial flight is a far more stewardly use of financial resources than is a private jet. The only advantage of the private jet or a private charter is convenience. Flying commercial airlines means you have to plan ahead to be at such and such a place on such and such a date. Crises and Emergencies cannot be planned.
unsafe said:Here is an article that says when the Pastor preaches at another location who pays and for what -----responsibility is on the Church to foot the bill so where does the money come from ------well the congregation's funds I suspect ---The Church robbing the poor Folk to pay for the Pastor
Minimum Salaries for Ministry Personnel 2018 said:Travel: $0.39 per kilometer (p. 8)
Visiting Ministry Personnel: $209 daily rate (p. 8)
Luce NDs said:Conference calls are thus non convened due to rush?
Luce NDs said:How inconvenient to stop this human race to be one end or the other ... be the neigh MS 've me ... nemesis put down by writ .. rite? Lo' form ...
Depends upon the court establishing the call. That said my experience at all levels of the Church is that Conference Calls are scheduled when A) the participants cover a large geographic area and paying travel for all to come together is considered poor stewardship or B) schedules of individual members do not facilitate a face to face meeting.
Even where the Conference Call is the most stewardly option from a fiscal perspective I am not sure that we make our best decisions phone to phone. And sometimes technologies conflict and create more problems.
Growing pains I guess.
Unsafe is a follower of the health and wealth gospel. So when someone takes exception to a pastor buying a luxury jet she has to come to their defense. True-Christians have to have true- money or else the health and wealth gospel can't be preached.Don't think so, unsafe. Rich Christian ministries seem to get an absolute nod from the IRS in the U.S. I don't think there's any Canadian ministers with jets, although I stand to be corrected. Seems to point to the fact that the Canadian tax system understands the concept of "not for profit" better than our neighbours down south.
A jet. really? For any purpose other than to pose as an a**hole millionaire/billionaire? Really? You're defending this sort of s**t in the name of your religion? Yikes...
God owns your money but Kenneth owns his church,You lost me as soon as you said they "own" their churches.