Carbon Pricing: Necessary or just one way?

[Mendalla]

So it appears that the NDP are stepping back on carbon pricing, suggesting, "is not the "be-all, end-all" and encouraging premiers to come up with new ideas to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions" (from the article linked below) and backing the Conservative motion calling for a federal-provincial meeting on the subject. While I do support the idea of a meeting myself given current tensions, I am not sure about the idea that we can really affect carbon usage without putting a price on its impact. Trudeau, of course, is going after the NDP for backing down on a position that they have held for some time but it appears that public resistance to the cost of carbon pricing has influenced their decision so it is probably going to stay. And Poilievre is rightly accusing the NDP of being insincere given their past policy on the matter.

What do you think? Can we fight climate change without putting a cost on carbon? Is this all politicking and electioneering that could all change again after next year's election? Is this going to be Trudeau's downfall or the NDP's?

MSN

Personally, I am thinking that the Conservatives and premiers might be winning on this and carbon pricing might be dead. I fully expect that Poilievre with a majority will cancel or push out the drop dead date for pure ICE vehicles, too.

 

[Luce NDs]

Most folk are stupefied over the matter that they wish not to comprehend!

 

[Waterfall]

So it appears that the NDP are stepping back on carbon pricing, suggesting, "is not the "be-all, end-all" and encouraging premiers to come up with new ideas to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions" (from the article linked below) and backing the Conservative motion calling for a federal-provincial meeting on the subject. While I do support the idea of a meeting myself given current tensions, I am not sure about the idea that we can really affect carbon usage without putting a price on its impact. Trudeau, of course, is going after the NDP for backing down on a position that they have held for some time but it appears that public resistance to the cost of carbon pricing has influenced their decision so it is probably going to stay. And Poilievre is rightly accusing the NDP of being insincere given their past policy on the matter.

What do you think? Can we fight climate change without putting a cost on carbon? Is this all politicking and electioneering that could all change again after next year's election? Is this going to be Trudeau's downfall or the NDP's?

MSN

Personally, I am thinking that the Conservatives and premiers might be winning on this and carbon pricing might be dead. I fully expect that Poilievre with a majority will cancel or push out the drop dead date for pure ICE vehicles, too.

It's my understanding that all carbon taxes are given back to the premiers of each province to decide what they want to do to with the money to lower emissions. Is that right?
So in Ontario it's supposed to encourage farmers to reduce their own emissions on the equipment they use by purchasing new equipment that doesn't pollute the air, because right now that equipment is exempt. Same with factories, etc that pollute water, air, whatever, they are offered incentives too. Is that correct?
So without incentives what would make them change? Just give the polluters a hefty fine and they have to fix it?

 

[Mendalla]

It's my understanding that all carbon taxes are given back to the premiers of each province to decide what they want to do to with the money to lower emissions. Is that right?
So in Ontario it's supposed to encourage farmers to reduce their own emissions on the equipment they use by purchasing new equipment that doesn't pollute the air, because right now that equipment is exempt. Same with factories, etc that pollute water, air, whatever, they are offered incentives too. Is that correct?
So without incentives what would make them change? Just give the polluters a hefty fine and they have to fix it?

I thought it was getting paid back directly to taxpayers, not to provinces. Or is it a bit of both? Because if it is getting paid to the provinces, why are they bitching so loudly? There are provinces (BC, Quebec) with their own carbon taxes and they are exempt from the federal one.

 

[Waterfall]

I thought it was getting paid back directly to taxpayers, not to provinces. Or is it a bit of both? Because if it is getting paid to the provinces, why are they bitching so loudly? There are provinces (BC, Quebec) with their own carbon taxes and they are exempt from the federal one.

Just reading what the federal government page says.
And yes BC and Quebec are exempt but they have created their own carbon tax and BC is doing that extremely well....a gold standard on how to do it. This tax also helps to fight their wildfires and get more efficient equipment. This is what the federal government is asking each province to do, submit a plan and take over...not scrap it.

 

[GordW]

I thought it was getting paid back directly to taxpayers, not to provinces. Or is it a bit of both? Because if it is getting paid to the provinces, why are they bitching so loudly? There are provinces (BC, Quebec) with their own carbon taxes and they are exempt from the federal one.

My understanding is that rebates flow to individuals not provinces (or corporations either???) and then some funds are used to fund specific projects ut not just funds given to the governments to use as they see fit.

I agree that the current Carbon price/pollution price is likely dead, partly because the Trudeau Liberals have badly misplayed the hand (the fuel oil debacle comes to mind). However I think we need a price on pollution (carbon emissions, single-use plastics, to name two easy ones) to actually change behaviour. And even then it has not really changed behaviour for a large number of people. How do we winn minds and hearts?

 

[Delightful Life]

This is a good essay on the deep problems with these kinds of things

Again, Corey Doctoraw

Cory Doctorow: The market for carbon credit lemons (aka carbon offsets) | Red, Green, and Blue

The idea of selling indulgences – the right to sin, for a price – has been controversial for the past 500+ years, since Jan Hus’s condemnation of the practice. And yet here we are, in the age of carbon offsets, where forgiveneess for torching the planet is for sale. By Cory Doctorow Pluralistic...

redgreenandblue.org

 

[Luce NDs]

I am told it is a very painful experience t change the behavior of a character ... thus resistance and ohm age to doing little ... regarding the vision of changing the course of humanity! Learning is bad stuff is the impli*cation.

There is a word called cation ... and also one an ion! Said to be missing a plus particle and thus a downer in the mental chemistry! These things can explode over stupid stuff and stupidity ... consider the aftermath of the axis powers ... different spins? Authority is corrupted ...

 

[Waterfall]

Another question....so we all pay for the carbon tax, and then 90% of what we give is given back to us through 4 cheques throughout the year.
So is there some kind of spread sheet to show exactly where the 10% from 40 million people goes that we don't get back? Why take as much as they do to start with, only to give most of it back?
Why not just factor that 10% that's left over into our taxes with those with higher incomes paying more?
There seems to be a disconnect for me between paying carbon taxes just to get most of it back anyway.
Im pleading ignorance...anyone?

 

[Luce NDs]

Another question....so we all pay for the carbon tax, and then 90% of what we give is given back to us through 4 cheques throughout the year.
So is there some kind of spread sheet to show exactly where the 10% from 40 million people goes that we don't get back? Why take as much as they do to start with, only to give most of it back?
Why not just factor that 10% that's left over into our taxes with those with higher incomes paying more?
There seems to be a disconnect for me between paying carbon taxes just to get most of it back anyway.
Im pleading ignorance...anyone?

A 10% general taxation????

Do you know how authorities will react to that? Tis not a good thought ... for them to pay for anything!

What is terminal? That is a spot where thought weeps through a peculiar orifice ... 90% of the time authorities believe it is a crap shoot where the rest of us persevere ... until escape! Then we too do not know ... all thoughts having been extracted in the milling, punching and minding everyone Elsie's business ... because the top dog lost it along the way as things in heaven went awry! The concept of not going around in a spin? God' su rest ... id'le come TU!

Some call this the latent wracking that gets messed up with the waking syndrome under heaven ... can't beat it because it amounts to nothing ... some say a great passion ... and then it departs! It is just how it goes ... A' lef TU's?

Can you compare a lam in both primal Sematic tongues ... what's a' man tick ... a twitch due to uncertainty ... something to know! It too represents a syndrome ... quantum motive? Lost de light ...

 

[Nancy]

Today's news on CBC: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jane-goodall-carbon-tax-electric-vehicles-1.7170992

 

[jimkenney12]

What people pay in carbon tax depends on how much carbon is in the fuels they buy.

How much of an energy rebate they get depends on their income. Poor people will get back much more than they spend because they cannot afford to use that much fuel. This does not apply to BC and Quebec.

A person who commutes by walking or biking only pays direct carbon tax for the fuels used for electricity and heating for their home and this would be pretty minimal. A person who commutes to work daily with a high emission vehicle would pay a lot of carbon tax. Most people have choices they can make about how they commute, the vehicles they decide to own, how they drive, the home or homes they own, how energy efficient their homes are, how warm they keep their homes, how cool they keep their homes on hot days, and so on. Right now the carbon tax is about 10% of the cost of fuel so it is a small factor in making energy use decisions. It needs to be about three times higher to be really effective.

It needs to be applied to the fuels used in the oil industry and some other industries. In agriculture, carbon tax rebates should be based on production to encourage farmers to lower their energy use.

Carbon credits in general are a scheme for middle men to make money with little impact on carbon emissions. One exception is changing agricultural practices to increase carbon storage in the soil. This should be paid to farmers as part of the rebate system. The challenge is to reliably estimate the increase in carbon in the soil each year.

Current carbon taxes are a modest incentive to be more efficient in energy use. Subsidizing personal use EVs discourages more use of public transit.

 

[jimkenney12]

I forgot to mention people also pay GST on the carbon tax. If just GST is applied that is 5% of the carbon tax. If HST is applied, it is 13% of the tax in Ontario or about another 1.3% of the cost of fuel.

 

[jimkenney12]

This is my letter to Justin Trudeau sent a few days ago.
I hope you will accept the request to meet the provincial premiers with conditions.
1. You will have 10 uninterrupted minutes to present an argument for the Carbon Tax.
Start with a chart showing how the carbon tax actually affects the prices of various goods and housing. This chart is available from Facebook and elsewhere. Then provide information on how climate issues are affecting the cost of insurance. Add in effects on food production, restoration costs from floods and fires. Finish with a chart showing how our forests have changed from being net absorbers of carbon to being net emitters of carbon.
2. You will provide 5 minutes for asking questions related to your presentation.
3. The premiers will choose the order for their presentations and each will be given 5 minutes to explain why they want the tax reduced or paused along with what they will do to reduce green house gas emissions including references to research that indicates their proposals will probably work.
4. After their presentations are finished, schedule about 10 to 20 minutes for moderated discussion. Ask the premiers to choose a moderator for the meeting.

Have the meeting broadcast live.

Be sure your presentation is clear and razor sharp with accurate statistics. Finish with wishing them all well with their preparations for the oncoming fire season and local droughts.

We need to act decisively now in slowing climate change and the Carbon Tax is vital to achieving that goal. Opponents to the tax have grossly exaggerated the costs of the tax and have downplayed the threats from accelerating climate change. We also need to do much more than that.

 

[Luce NDs]

Will people with blind visions freely reduce carbon consumption? Perhaps they will buy bigger trucks to carry larger tanks ... without think ... no thanks!

I'd rather knw even if it is painful ... and contrary to the willies ... these disguise themselves as something else ... the basis of metaphorical displays!

Road runners ...