Does God Suffer?

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Waterfall

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Does God Suffer?

Some believe it was the human Jesus that suffered, not the divine God. Is the divine God then unmoved by humanities sufferings? Can a divine God's love be realized without suffering with us and for us?
There is an assumed " divine impassibility"

And then there are those that believe that the divine nature of God is LOVE and therefore He must still suffer with us. How can one love without feeling related to ones creature? If God is revealed through Jesus, did He not suffer on the cross? Did the death of Jesus involve not only His humanity but also His deity?

Yes Jesus suffered,died and ascended, but is He still a God that suffers? Does all suffering stop when we physically die?


 
Perhaps the most important reason God allows us to suffer is to connect us empathetically with Christ through affiliating our sufferings to his. The Son of God came into our world to testify to the love of God by suffering on our behalf.

Because God loves us he chose to enter into our suffering in order to save/rescue/redeem us from it.

As Alister E. McGrath writes in his book Suffering and God, “The love of God, Luther stresses, is revealed through the suffering of Christ, not despite that suffering.”

Now thanks to Christ’s suffering, whenever a natural disaster strikes, the Church can share with hurting people that while suffering is excruciating, there is life and hope beyond it.
 
Thank you Jae, so you would consider yourself on the side of passibility, meaning that God is capable of feeling emotions, especially suffering, as opposed to impassibility which means He exists above human emotion and is untouched by it?
To be honest, I am just discovering the possibilities of both sides and I'm intrigued. Both are equally supported by scripture, so how can that be a defining factor? What happens when scripture supports both sides? I imagine this was a conundrum when Christs divinity was being debated.
Have you taken any theological classes about this Jae? Arguments for both sides? I'm interested in how you arrived at your particular view and anyone else who has studied this.
I'm finding this subject fascinating, especially since I was always taught that God wants a relationship with us.
 
Waterfall said:
Thank you Jae, so you would consider yourself on the side of passibility, meaning that God is capable of feeling emotions, especially suffering, as opposed to impassibility which means He exists above human emotion and is untouched by it?
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You're welcome Waterfall. I guess I would be on the side of passibility. I believe God is capable of feeling emotions, and that he is very much in touch with, understanding of, and caring about our emotions. I would say that this is the side that is substantiated by the Bible. While others might, I honestly wouldn't want to serve God who is untouched by human joys, sorrows, and suffering. Such a being would be a non-feeling alien being who I could not call my Father.

Waterfall said:
To be honest, I am just discovering the possibilities of both sides and I'm intrigued. Both are equally supported by scripture, so how can that be a defining factor? What happens when scripture supports both sides?
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How do you see impassibility supported by Scripture Waterfall? I'm seriously interested.

Waterfall said:
I imagine this was a conundrum when Christs divinity was being debated.
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Perhaps.

Waterfall said:
Have you taken any theological classes about this Jae? Arguments for both sides?
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Not per se. I aced the course Doctrine of God in university, but I can't recall this being discussed. In seminary we haven't any courses in it, but overall our discussion has been very much about a God who is touched by human emotion and cares about people deeply. Our program, which focuses on missional theology and ecclesiology, has very much focused on the call to be in loving community with other people, as God is a loving commune within himself, and has called us to be in loving community with him. It would be difficult if not impossible to be closely connected with God and others without the ability to empathize.

Waterfall said:
I'm interested in how you arrived at your particular view and anyone else who has studied this. I'm finding this subject fascinating, especially since I was always taught that God wants a relationship with us.
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I believe that he does very much.
 
Waterfall said:
Does God Suffer?
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You can answer this yourself. Is god a perfect being. yes/no? If yes then it would want for nothing, and as such would/could not suffer. Something that's ultimate perfection could never suffer that would be a flaw. All it could ever do would be to get info on suffering from third parties, it could never feel it itself. Like being blind and trying to understand what it is like to be see. You could never understand colour, etc..

If no, then why are you following such a creature.
 
Does God suffer? I believe God feels all our emotions and shares them with us - empathy. When we rejoice in the good things God has given, God rejoices with us. When we are worried, God takes our worries upon himself. (Come onto me all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.) And when we suffer, God is with us sharing our suffering. I think of a young friend of mine who was with friends one warm summer night when he and his friends decided to take a canoe out. It overturned. He was not a strong swimmer but his friend made sure he was clinging to the canoe. The friend (barely) made it to shore to summon help that came too late. But I imagine Bruce out there in that cold water, alone in the dark - but not alone for God was with him giving him the strength to hang on just a little longer, and when the time came that he couldn't hang on, saying "Come to me." I think of the hymn "I was there to hear your borning cry". God is with us from birth, through life's joys and struggles, to one's end, whether we realize it or not. Yes, God suffers.

And I don't believe that God's suffering is limited to individual humans. I believe that God loves, and suffers with, all God's creatures - the polar bear that is starving because the Arctic ice is melting and making seal hunting difficult to impossible (and God is with the frantic seal swimming away from the bear). God is with the elephant shot for its ivory. With the animals hunted to extinction for sport.

And God is with the whole world when we cannot settle our differences except through killing each other. We must be breaking God's heart.

And God rejoices each time we show a kindness or give a cup of water. (Inasmuch as ye do it unto the least ... you do it onto me.)
 
Seeler said:
Does God suffer? I believe God feels all our emotions and shares them with us - empathy.
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A perfect being has no flaws, a perfect being is impassible. Your god cannot be subjected to an external force that is more powerful than it is. And therefore can only imagine what suffering feel like. It cannot by default feel what you feel, it can only feel for and by itself, And as a perfect being it cannot have negative feelings, because it would not be perfect then.
It isn't rocket science to understand that, is it.
If you insist that your god feels your emotion, shares your problems then it cannot be perfect.
 
Pr. Jae said:
How do you see impassibility supported by Scripture Waterfall? I'm seriously interested.
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These are some of the Bible scriptures that support impassibility:
Malachi 3:6 "I am what I am statement"
(simple divinity) In Maimonades "Guide to the Perplexed" states, "Those that believe God is One, and that He has many attributes, declare the unity with their lips and assume plurality with their thoughts"
Even to say that God is "all powerful", "all good", "all knowing" is to introduce plurality if they are considered separate attributes. To hold the conviction that God is one, without admitting plurality or divisibility, in any sense whatever, you must understand that God has no essential tribute in any form or attribute whatsoever, and that the rejection or corporeality implies the rejection of any attributes. God is neither this nor that, and that any verbal expression fails us and the best way to praise God is through silence.

Genisis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth"
God as creator is by definition separate from the universe and thus free of any property. (absolute unity)
For others "divine unity" informs the understanding of "divine simplicity" (Shema Yisrael) "an entitiy that is truly one, must be free of properties and thus indescribable...and thus unlike anything else"
Such an entity would be absolutely unsubject to change, as well as utterly independent and the root of everything. (supported by Deuteronomy 6:4; "The Lord is our God, the Lord is One")
All this creates a paradox, on one hand God is absolutely simple and on the other hand God's essence contains every possible element of perfection....the Kabbalist explain that this is why God created the spiritual realm to interact with the universe.
Oye vey!!! Simply complicated IMO, but probably not any less than our mental gymnastics with Christianity that leads us down many interpretations.

To an impassibilist the passages that support the passibilists are considered mere anthropomorphism and suggest that these passages also confirm their view.
eg. "in all their distress, He too was distressed" Isaiah 63:9
"my heart cries out over Moab? Isaiah 15:5

The passibilist interprets metaphorically giving certain passiblist attributes to God such as repenting, changing His mind, jealousy, anger,etc....
 
Pavlos Maros said:
You can answer this yourself. Is god a perfect being. yes/no? If yes then it would want for nothing, and as such would/could not suffer. Something that's ultimate perfection could never suffer that would be a flaw. All it could ever do would be to get info on suffering from third parties, it could never feel it itself. Like being blind and trying to understand what it is like to be see. You could never understand colour, etc..

If no, then why are you following such a creature.
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Not sure, but you seem to be combining a passibilist and impassiblist understanding within your explanation by suggesting an unmoving God needs to be taught how to feel? Bear with me on this subject...I'm learning myself.

As to why I follow, probably because I have to look beyond myself and within myself to evolve.
 
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Seeler said:
Does God suffer? I believe God feels all our emotions and shares them with us - empathy. When we rejoice in the good things God has given, God rejoices with us. When we are worried, God takes our worries upon himself. (Come onto me all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.) And when we suffer, God is with us sharing our suffering. I think of a young friend of mine who was with friends one warm summer night when he and his friends decided to take a canoe out. It overturned. He was not a strong swimmer but his friend made sure he was clinging to the canoe. The friend (barely) made it to shore to summon help that came too late. But I imagine Bruce out there in that cold water, alone in the dark - but not alone for God was with him giving him the strength to hang on just a little longer, and when the time came that he couldn't hang on, saying "Come to me." I think of the hymn "I was there to hear your borning cry". God is with us from birth, through life's joys and struggles, to one's end, whether we realize it or not. Yes, God suffers.

And I don't believe that God's suffering is limited to individual humans. I believe that God loves, and suffers with, all God's creatures - the polar bear that is starving because the Arctic ice is melting and making seal hunting difficult to impossible (and God is with the frantic seal swimming away from the bear). God is with the elephant shot for its ivory. With the animals hunted to extinction for sport.

And God is with the whole world when we cannot settle our differences except through killing each other. We must be breaking God's heart.

And God rejoices each time we show a kindness or give a cup of water. (Inasmuch as ye do it unto the least ... you do it onto me.)
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So using logic, instead of only using scripture as a resource:
-If God is moved by the world, does this make God dependent on the events of the world? Does this contradict that God is not dependent on anything?
-If suffering love implies mutability, does this contradict the immutability and eternity of God, since change implies being in time? Is change always for the better?
Unless of course you reject the immutable and eternal as qualities that are of God?
 
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Pavlos Maros said:
A perfect being has no flaws, a perfect being is impassible. Your god cannot be subjected to an external force that is more powerful than it is. And therefore can only imagine what suffering feel like. It cannot by default feel what you feel, it can only feel for and by itself, And as a perfect being it cannot have negative feelings, because it would not be perfect then.
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I must admit, that is a great understanding, Koods to you , But what this God can do is make Himself lower, place Himself under His own Laws and run the risk of violating them, and if He does violate any of them, God Himself would lose and fall from His Own Glory.
 
A God who Suffers ----

Isaiah 63:7-10 (NLT)

Praise for Deliverance
7 I will tell of theLord’s unfailing love.
I will praise theLordfor all he has done.
I will rejoice in his great goodness to Israel,
which he has granted according to his mercy and love.
8 He said, “They are my very own people.
Surely they will not betray me again.”
And he became their Savior.
9 In all their suffering he also suffered,
and he personally[a]rescued them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them.
He lifted them up and carried them
through all the years.
10 But they rebelled against him
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he became their enemy
and fought against them.


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