Who’s to Blame for the Riots? Sermon by John MacArthur

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Ritafee

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This is veering pretty far into another topic but i’m putting it here for continuity. What Wortman did was monsterous, no question. And putting aside for a second, the justification or not for deadly force used on him, it could be way worse than I thought, as if it could even get any worse. It looks like there are some serious issues in the RCMP possibly being covered up. And it merits a full inquiry. I hadn’t read this, hadn’t followed the story for awhile. This is surreal. It reads more like a movie script than real life.

No it is not veering away from the topic ... the riots and protests world wide are a cry for justice and transparency around the corruption and legal impunity within the systems of 'power and control'. No one is debating that the NS 'shooter' was guilty of murder ...
 

Ritafee

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Since information was/ is slow coming forward, in these times it doesn’t surprise me that all kinds of stories are spinning. Before internet it was called gossip, today it’s called conspiracy theory.
As a child, we used to play this game at irthday parties where you sitin a row and one person whispers a sentence into the next persons ear, that one whispers whatever he/ she heard into the next persons ear and so on until the last person says the sentence out loud. It was never even close to what was said in the first place.
As a child I used to think police officers were all good people ... without question.
 
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Since information was/ is slow coming forward, in these times it doesn’t surprise me that all kinds of stories are spinning. Before internet it was called gossip, today it’s called conspiracy theory.
As a child, we used to play this game at irthday parties where you sitin a row and one person whispers a sentence into the next persons ear, that one whispers whatever he/ she heard into the next persons ear and so on until the last person says the sentence out loud. It was never even close to what was said in the first place.
I trust Maclean's reporting. Mounties and banking experts interviewed all concur that a regular citizen couldn't have gone into a Brink's and taken out hundreds of thousands in cash. There are several odd things that warrant a full investigation. Information is slow because an investigation is being stalled. It is odd that they wouldn't get on it right away. It's one of the worst and most bizarre deadly criminal incidents to ever happen in Canada. They can't just go "Okay we got the guy. He's dead. Case closed." It seems like that's what they'd like to do though. Which is odd.
 
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So far nobody else is reporting this. Maclean’s is not a tabloid and they would do their research responsibly. They wouldn’t just print a fish-tale (that’s what I learned that story game was called). Why is CBC not touching it? Very strange.
 
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If Wortman had been working for the Mounties as an informant/ agent (something to do with biker gangs), this would not look good for them. And maybe that’s why the joint inquiry is so slow to happen.
 

Lastpointe

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You had the privilege of arguing with a cop about your dog's tags. If you were not a well off white woman, you may well have not been afforded that privelege. And there's a much stronger chance that you wouldn't have won that argument in that moment (or at all for that matter - you might have had to go to court and lose the case), if you were black and tried to argue your point. Awareness of privelege is something we (especially white people) need to reflect on, more fully, and regularly.
oh I totally agree. I was able to argue because I am a middle aged white woman. No question about it
 

Northwind

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They're protesting the RCMP and other government agencies (prov and fed) for dilly dallying on a full inquiry.
Thanks for the more specific information Kimmio. What are they doing to protest? Are they doing their own marches?
 
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Looks like there’s mounting public pressure being put on various officials, including by the families of the victims. @Northwind They’re voicing their concerns through the news, editorials, tweets, and I imagine letters and phone calls. I think one of the families has a lawyer (paywalled story in the globe I only read the headline for). I am not sure if there have been any marches or picketing at this point or not.

 
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Looks like there’s mounting public pressure being put on various officials, including by the families of the victims. @Northwind They’re voicing their concerns through the news, editorials, tweets, and I imagine letters and phone calls. I think one of the families has a lawyer (paywalled story in the globe I only read the headline for). I am not sure if there have been any marches or picketing at this point or not.

There’s a lot about the situation on this Halifax news site.

 
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I read that the aforementioned officials have agreed on a “mechanism” for launching the inquiry. Whatever that means. What is the usual “mechanism” for launching a full inquiry into RCMP actions/ inaction?It’s not the first time a full inquiry into a situation has been launched...so, then, why do they need to think up one together this time? Did they need a different mechanism for some reason? What reason?...they haven’t gone ahead yet regardless. ...They have a “mechanism” though :sneaky:(y). Sounds (to me) like maybe they’re stalling with red tape and throwing out words like mechanism to make it sound like progress has been made.
 
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I think this story is going to get more exposure. I hope so. Maclean’s is a credible source of investigative journalism. I wonder why CBC hasn’t picked this up? I notice a couple of right wing leaning papers and rags, like Daily Mail in the UK, and the “Post Millenial” (normally far right garbage imo) have picked it up. As soon as a story goes there, it gets missed/ overlooked/ discredited by the mainstream public. I wonder if there’s a reason why it landed there. It sounds like a conspiracy theory on my part...but I do wonder what’s up with that - because, like I said, Maclean’s first investigated and reported the story, and they are credible. (They got ahold of the video of Wortman’s transaction at Brink’s. That’s huge. But not a peep from CBC, or any of the other major outlets yet. Why is that video not in a story on every major outlet?)
 
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I put these here for conversational continuity but maybe they belong in the thread about the NS shootings.

The Toronto Star reported this:

It’s very weird. Maclean’s interviewed Mounties who were or had been involved in undercover work, and they said this is how their informants/ agents get paid. (and they said “flash money”. I’m not sure what that means). It’s done that way because it can be kept secret/ low profile. Banking experts said that a civilian would not be able to withdraw that much cash from Brink’s. It’s highly unusual for an individual to withdraw any cash through Brink’s anyway. Normally, it would go through a regular bank, the bank would put a hold on a large request until it was checked out - as per the rules on very large cash withdrawl - and if all clear, there would be a paper trail, and the money would be collected in a private room at the regular bank. It wouldn’t just get picked up at Brink’s like that.
 
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Mrs.Anteater

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. Banking experts said that a civilian would not be able to withdraw that much cash from Brink’s
This is how conspiracy theories start. He was a business owner. Brinks is a company handling business cash. How else would they make business - they‘ ve got to have some legal customers,it would be suspicious if they only deal with criminals money and police informants.
 

Ritafee

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This is how conspiracy theories start.
The head of the union representing RCMP officers questioned the need for an inquiry

Tammy Landau, an associate professor of criminology at Ryerson University, says that a public inquiry with a broad mandate to explore all the systemic issues at play – including the issue of toxic masculinity – is the only “reasonable response.”

“This is the biggest mass shooting in Canadian history. This isn’t just about a guy who went off one day. There are other issues: his love of the police, his violence against women, his use of firearms. This is not a one-guy thing and it would be a terrible mistake and a terrible disservice to the public to look at this as the work of a lone gunman. The bigger issues are not just Nova Scotia issues.”

She says police operational decisions are also fair game. “There can really be a false distinction between police operations and policies. Because operational decisions have to be prioritized that’s a policy. It can’t just be the RCMP taking a look.”

Even before there’s a public inquiry, however, a coroner’s inquest (or fatality inquest as it’s known in some provinces) may have to be conducted. They’re mandated by law when someone dies in police custody. But it’s unclear at this point how Wortman died after “an altercation” with RCMP at a gas station in Enfield. At one point, the RCMP issued a tweet saying Wortman was “in custody,” only to be pronounced dead later.


What happened will be for the Serious Incident Response Team, or SiRT, to figure out. The civilian-led agency is charged with investigating serious incidents of injury or death involving the RCMP. It’s currently investigating the particulars surrounding Wortman’s death and that of Constable Heidi Stevenson, as well as the shooting incident involving Wortman and a second RCMP officer who survived the incident.

SiRT will also be investigating a shooting incident involving RCMP officers at a fire hall that was being used to evacuate residents to safety while Wortman was still reportedly on the loose. Several media outlets reported the incident, but it was quickly lost in the coverage of the carnage. It’s unclear how it fits in to events, and initially, it looked like SiRT would be investigating the matter.

Police oversight is not exactly in its infancy in Nova Scotia – SiRT was established in 2012 – but oversight of the RCMP policing small rural communities that don’t have their own force – or a police services board to monitor them – has long been an issue.

SiRT gets high marks from Sauvé. But like similar police oversight bodies, there have been questions about transparency and impartiality. For example, those conducting investigations for the unit are not civilians, but police officers (including RCMP officers) seconded from other forces. It’s small annual budget ($600,000), also restricts the scope of investigations it can conduct. More recently, SiRT has undergone a change of leadership after its director had to go on medical leave.

Says Landau: “Policing is so fractured and so divided in small communities that it’s difficult to nail down an effective oversight body. With the RCMP the additional complication is that a lot of their policing is contract policing. It leaves them in this awkward position where they are federal police officers policing a tiny little community in Nova Scotia. Who tells them what to do? Well, under our model it should be the local community, but I suspect that not every community that’s policed in Nova Scotia has a police services board. Who is actually setting the local policy as they do in other parts of the country?”

“They have no accused to blame because the bad guy is dead,” says Sauvé. “So that adds another layer of complexity. We’re not going to have a court case. No one is going to be able to see the guy do the perp walk.
 
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