Vaccine passports and the constitution

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Northwind

Still knitting. Walking the path to health.
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As you know, businesses and governments are starting to require proof of vaccination in order to participate in parts of our society. BC is requiring proof for various non-essential activities like restaurants, gyms and shopping.

Lately I've seen people saying "mandated" vaccinations go against the Nuremberg Code. I've also seen cries that this is illegal and goes against the constitution.

I don't see how this is against the Nuremberg Code. The vaccine is not experimental.

I could likely argue both sides of the issue around requiring proof of vaccine. I'm starting this thread to have a discussion on this.

What do you say?
 

Luce NDs

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Remember that all the people cannot be satisfied all the time ... and a faction will never be satisfied!

It may be part of the protocol for the prototypes that are counter to the archetype ... that remains the same internally if not extant!

That'd be temporal folks ... then we are fished out of the stew. Maybe not exactly like that but some kind of metaphorical existence as parallel metaphor.

In the future we may collide again and then maybe not with such impetus ... Et us being a curious expression!
 

Waterfall

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The vaccine is not experimental.
I've had both doses of the Pfizer vaccine, but still to me, the vaccine still falls under the category of experimental. And with winter coming we shall see.
The fact that they are now saying we can still get Covid but it will be less severe is starting to be worrisome to me.
But I "volunteered", so we shall see.....but I can honestly say, fear was the motivator.....not actual real human studies.
I get the hesitancy for vaccines.....I guess the fear of Covid overruled the fear of the vaccine for me.
I see vaccine mandates for healthcare workers and teachers...which may cause more of a staffing shortage for those who refuse.
I personally dont believe we can mandate vaccines without also fully closing borders and remaining at a higher level of emergency while we complete this experiment.
 

Redbaron

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I think the vaccine is past the 'experimental' stage by now, to be honest. I can understand business, trying to be safe places, asking for some sort of verification of vaccination. Most school districts require a vaccination (or a valid reason why vaccination is contraindicated) before beginning school, after all.
 

jimkenney12

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I prefer the term, certificate of vaccination, just as people need a certificate of vaccination for yellow fever to travel to countries where it is a problem. I carry the confirmation of second vaccination I got at the time.
 

jimkenney12

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I believe it would be fair to require proof of vaccination or payment for a rapid test by businesses and others where risk of exposure due to the activity is high including restaurants, bars, gyms, sports venues, schools, and health facilities. I do not know what a fair charge would be for a rapid test.

Daily rapid tests for employees without vaccinations, or every 3 to 5 days, and monthly rapid tests for all employees in schools and care centres would probably be appropriate as well since vaccinated people can also be infected by the Delta variant.
 

Northwind

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What about the constitutional aspect of this? Is it unconstitutional or against the charter more specifically, to require a proof of vaccination? Random drug tests can be performed under certain circumstances. My initial thought is that vaccine certificates can also be required under certain circumstances.
 

Mendalla

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There is only way to determine its constitutionality: Challenge it in court. Anything else is just talking heads chattering.

So if someone is claiming it is unconstitutional, the correct response is, "Then challenge it in court." Make them put their money where their mouth is. If they won't do that, then they should shut the f up because if they truly believe it violates the constitution, they should be willing to put that to the test.
 

ChemGal

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I think a challenge could be won when it's about what goes on within the country (vs. travel). I think it's a problem if we say sure, we can make an exception for an 11 year old, but not for the person who has allergies to components.
Also I do get annoyed when it's just about vaccines and not actual effects. I had mentioned I would have gotten 1 dose and then antibody tested if it was possible. What if that did happen and my antibodies were high? Why should someone with 2 doses but lower antibody levels be able to eat in a restaurant but then I wouldn't.

I do know someone who had a very bad HAE attack after her first dose and was told not to get the 2nd, so it's not just all hypothetical. There's a number of things she cannot do now.
 

Waterfall

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I have a vaccine "certificate", I am fully vaccinated.....but I can still spread and get Covid. So what exactly does one think a certificate is going to prevent?
 

Waterfall

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There is only way to determine its constitutionality: Challenge it in court. Anything else is just talking heads chattering.

So if someone is claiming it is unconstitutional, the correct response is, "Then challenge it in court." Make them put their money where their mouth is. If they won't do that, then they should shut the f up because if they truly believe it violates the constitution, they should be willing to put that to the test.
That assumes everyone who disagrees has the money to challenge it in court.
 

BetteTheRed

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So what exactly does one think a certificate is going to prevent?

Death, hospitalization, intubation.
That assumes everyone who disagrees has the money to challenge it in court.

Not really. If enough people, including a lawyer or two, thought it was unconstitutional, presumably a challenge could be mounted without any one individual having to spend a great deal of money.
 

Waterfall

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Death, hospitalization, intubation.
Not necessarily, yes it supposedly lessens the chance, but vaccines do not last forever and over time the efficacy rate is lowered. Delta is a whole different ballgame and can still be spread by the vaccinated. Certificate or not.....assume anyone can have it and spread it, IMO.
 

Mendalla

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That assumes everyone who disagrees has the money to challenge it in court.
Lawyers will often take these cases pro bono since a constitutional case makes good reputation and resume building material. And surely an anti-vax group could fundraise to fund a challenge if this is really so important to them.
 

Northwind

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Not necessarily, yes it supposedly lessens the chance, but vaccines do not last forever and over time the efficacy rate is lowered. Delta is a whole different ballgame and can still be spread by the vaccinated. Certificate or not.....assume anyone can have it and spread it, IMO.


This is an excellent article that shows that vaccines do help even when their efficacy is lowered. How we live with coronavirus

I do agree that we need to live with the assumption that anyone can be a risk. Still, vaccines do lower that risk.
 

BetteTheRed

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Well, and before all this, there were regular shut downs of nursing homes/LTC because of flu.

Once the death/ICU/complication rates get down to those of flu/cold viruses, then it can just be part of the yearly flu shot. And we should all wear masks if we're feeling under the weather, for good, IMHO.
 

ChemGal

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I have a vaccine "certificate", I am fully vaccinated.....but I can still spread and get Covid. So what exactly does one think a certificate is going to prevent?
The healthcare system from being completely overwhelmed, it's already partially there. If we manage to have only vaccinated people develop covid, the percent who will need medical care goes down. It also reduces the number of people they are likely to spread it to, further decreasing healthcare strain.

I do think some decisions being made are too reliant on vaccines only though. I think overall we need to look at the various tools and get a good balance of avoiding life disruption and keeping covid cases in check.
 

Luce NDs

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In lieu of all the guidelines, suggestions and logical directions ... we will do just as we please as we follow the law of emotion!

That's how it is folk ... just because we can ... and someone was arrested in the US injecting food with foreign matter ... no chit! you say?

Does lack of communication of information free of emotional content mess up the system? Everything has to pass ... St. Fini!
 

Waterfall

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I do think some decisions being made are too reliant on vaccines only though. I think overall we need to look at the various tools and get a good balance of avoiding life disruption and keeping covid cases in check.
This
 

Luce NDs

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What are the options to decent care and concerns ... suicidal conditions?

Anything ... absolutely anything to be totally free of responsibility? The cost of such freedom ... quantum lots?
 
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