The sheep and goats parable

[jimkenney12]

As the preacher this morning finished reading Matthew 25:31..., I realized that the king did not open the way to the sheep. He welcomed them. They opened the way through actions that were kingdom actions. The kingdom or kindom is near, always. Living love for those with intense needs reflects a mindset or attitude that fits life in the kingdom. There is awareness and caring for others. The goats were preoccupied with themselves.

 

[BetteTheRed]

The total problem I have with that parable is that we are all sheep, and we are all goats. Does it then become a math problem? You visited 36 sick people and didn't visit 23 in prison, so you're, on a moral sheep/goat spreadsheet, all good?

And it's much easier to visit a misguided teenaged drug dealer in prison than it would be to be a neighbour to Paul Bernardo, right?

 

[Mendalla]

You visited 36 sick people and didn't visit 23 in prison, so you're, on a moral sheep/goat spreadsheet, all good?

I don't think it is about the ones you didn't visit, though, it is about the ones you did. The message is simply that the sheep visited people in prison, fed people, etc. and the goats did not. The fact that the sheep couldn't possibly visit every person in prison or feed every starving person isn't relevant. They made the effort to help and the goats did not, which is what matters. I don't think Jesus expected it to be a calculus problem, simply a message that being a good person and helping those in need of help is a way into heaven.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But the problem is, that most of the goats probably helped a person or two, and most of the sheep turned a blind eye on someone, for whatever reason. (I have discovered a wyrd thing in my customer service personality - it is very difficult for me to remain calm and externally focussed with a bipolar customer in a manic phase.)

 

[BetteTheRed]

AND this particular passage happens at the end of some other wyrd ones about the kin-dom/kingdom of heaven, including the unprepared bridesmaids, and those three servants and their talents. Matthew often makes me say "huh?"

 

[Mendalla]

But the problem is, that most of the goats probably helped a person or two, and most of the sheep turned a blind eye on someone, for whatever reason. (I have discovered a wyrd thing in my customer service personality - it is very difficult for me to remain calm and externally focussed with a bipolar customer in a manic phase.)

I think Jesus was drawing an absolute dichotomy though, which is the real flaw in this and a lot of other parables/fables. He wasn't thinking of the real complexity of humanity. So in context, it makes perfect sense because there are no sheep or goats like you describe in the parable's absolutist universe.

Which is, to be honest, a general problem with binary moral systems in general. No one is an angel, nor is anyone a devil. Which is why, as discussed in another thread, some kind of universalism with perhaps a purgatory-like element makes more sense than a strict Heaven-Hell divide.

The other oddity of this parable though, is the rejection of the goats when in other passages it seems that Jesus came specifically to save the sinners, not the saints.

 

[paradox3]

I have always thought the key point of this parable in that doing unto others is the same thing as doing unto Jesus. And likewise, not doing for others is the same thing as not doing for Jesus.

 

[jimkenney12]

In the reflection I sent to people on my list, I wrote that I do not know how judgement happens, but each time we are in the space of caring about others with intense needs, we are in a kingdom space.
Each time we are showing compassion like Jesus did, we share space with him.

 

[Waterfall]

Would we be " up a creek" without those goats?

 

[Luce NDs]

RAM is an odd metaphor for driving dimension of power of how we make ourselves deficient by not having reverence for the entire integral ... a wise mind that's beyond us ... out of yere head man! Such is prodigal, trash, waste and all that exiled mental stuff .. de meant able? Imagine white trash? Oh oh ...

But did you mean to reject reason? Thus an irrational sphere ... mores a pain in my succession! Its a mystery I don't know requiring a stretch in the abstract domain ... what's that? The authority will tell you not to go there and do not share information ... the deficient may put it all together ... finding a grim house!

 

[paradox3]

Are these parables are meant to teach us how we should live on this earth? Or is their purpose to highlight the final judgment of God at the end of time?

The liberal church tends to emphasize the former in its reading and interpretation. I was taught the concept of Hell in my religious upbringing but it was seen as a symbol of remorse.

 

[Mendalla]

I was taught the concept of Hell in my religious upbringing but it was seen as a symbol of remorse.

My recollection has always been that Heaven and Hell were kind of there as words and maybe concepts but no one actually seemed to believe in eternal damnation or anything like that. So what I call "tacit universalism".

 

[Luce NDs]

My recollection has always been that Heaven and Hell were kind of there as words and maybe concepts but no one actually seemed to believe in eternal damnation or anything like that. So what I call "tacit universalism".

Imagine Heaven and Hell as states of mind ...

That should stir the emotions of those that have disposed of the concept of psyche because of the self examination inhibition!

Inhibitions are said to form large Wahls and Fields hard to penetrate ... either agoraphobia or cloister phobic ...

 

[paradox3]

My recollection has always been that Heaven and Hell were kind of there as words and maybe concepts but no one actually seemed to believe in eternal damnation or anything like that. So what I call "tacit universalism".

Hell was always described in terms of remorse and/ or separation from God. I believe it is possible some persons will refuse reconciliation with God.

Tacit universalism is a useful term. And as we have discussed more than once, not all universalist theology is identical.

I am not sure what to make of Jesus's take on the apocalypse. Some of the parables such as the sheep and goats seem at odds with certain other teachings of His.

 

[Mendalla]

I believe it is possible some persons will refuse reconciliation with God.

Which, of course, is impossible in TULIP Calvinism (the I means Irresistable Grace) but might be in universalism depending on your universalism. The question becomes why one would refuse reconciliation with the Creator of all that is. If you're at the point of making that decision, presumably you've already had some revelation that there is such a being so atheism is not the answer.

 

[paradox3]

Perhaps the refinement process (purgatory or whatever it is) will be too onerous for some people. Perhaps they will be convinced their sins are unforgivable. Who knows?

I get where the evangelicals are coming from when they say the gift of grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit need to be accepted by us.

Hard to believe the next life will be different from this one as far as this goes.

 

[Mendalla]

I get where the evangelicals are coming from when they say the gift of grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit need to be accepted by us.

I do, too, but I also get where the Calvinists are coming from. Why would we be able to stop God from saving us? It's almost the same problem as why God can't stop evil. If God is all-powerful and wants to save us, we should be saved, period. No need for us to "accept".

 

[Luce NDs]

Is purge-ism sort of like a catharitc wash as Trump declares he is going to wash out the entire swamp?

He has different dreams than MLK Jr.

 

[Luce NDs]

I do, too, but I also get where the Calvinists are coming from. Why would we be able to stop God from saving us? It's almost the same problem as why God can't stop evil. If God is all-powerful and wants to save us, we should be saved, period. No need for us to "accept".

Thus drawn out deeply as Druids in the night ...mire whisps? More words ... they pile up in the stacks of unread material that folks swear they know everything about ... when often as naught they are in err! Kinky??? The blessing of reality displays ... and some statues in the garden!

Alas some have nice curves ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

Hey Paradox, I just confirmed, but we talked about this passage at Bible Study last week, and the Jesus Seminar had the entire passage black by common consent. They think it was added as a summary of Matthew's theological theme (not a parable). In contrast, the previous two parables in this chapter - the 10 maidens, half unprepared - was deemed grey, and the master with the three slaves given 'talents' - was designated pink.