The other F word

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chansen

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You're a fascist's dream. Just keep screaming the word, thinking you're saving the world.
 

chansen

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No. Trying to reason you out of shooting yourself in the foot is hell. Many have tried. You keep reloading.
 
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I’m posting about important things from reputable sources. Your attitude about me is your own problem stop detracting from the issue by focusing on me. My op was objective. Stop making it personal. You try to cause train wrecks when they’ve hardly left the station.
 
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You're a fascist's dream. Just keep screaming the word, thinking you're saving the world.
I am not just screaming the word. I am posting information. You’re a fascist’s dream if you’re trying to discourage people from reading it by denigrating me. Oh look. Only a few posts in and you’ve already distracted completely from the OP and started a train wreck by focusing on me...because I think you know that your initial “f***ing hell” reply was going to create distraction. That’s a typical behaviour of yours. Fascists thank you. Because now nobody will read what I posted.

I started this thread so we can discuss the word here. Not sure, given world politics today, that it’s possible to contain the discussion in one thread because fascism is an all consuming sociopolitical phenomenon by its nature. That’s its aim...but I would like to discuss it because it’s important and concerning. If you don’t want to, or have no important insights on the actual topic, that you would like to discuss, then go away.
 
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revsdd

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I have to agree that much of the response to some of what Kimmio is posting is driven by the fact that it's Kimmio posting it and not by a careful consideration of what she's saying.

As much as many of us (including me at times) think that Kimmio may be over-using the word "fascist" and at times seems to be throwing it indiscriminately at anyone who identifies as a "conservative" (I would argue that moderate right wing parties and candidates are important to confronting the far right while Kimmio seems suspicious of them) one cannot deny the frightening (and relatively sudden) rise of the truly far right in Europe. The Independent article she posted about contemporary Italian politics is fascinating and worrisome. I read it myself yesterday and had a feeling it would make an appearance at WC2. The reality is that far right parties are openly participating in European governments from Sweden, through much of Eastern Europe and into southern Europe in places like Greece and Italy, pushing nationalistic, racist and xenophobic policies. I hesitate to call them truly "fascist" because they're lacking what I believe to be some of the key components of fascism - notably, most of them aren't particularly militaristic. But I'd agree that they represent latent or proto-fascism. Such groups are playing less significant but noticeable roles in the politics of places like France and Britain and Germany. One of the engines of the Brexit movement in Britain was the British far right extreme nationalist movement and its fear of open immigration from Europe. Of course, much of the rise of the European right all over the continent has been driven by overt racism in response to the recent migrant crisis. It's been a latent force in many former colonial powers (especially Britain and France) for years and in those countries has fed off of fears about African immigration from former colonies.

I do see what's happening in North America as a little bit different. Here, I see many politicians using some of the tactics of fascism, but in my view without the substance of fascism. Someone like Trump, for instance, is a buffoon who knows what it takes to get himself elected. So he spreads fear and promotes an open nationalism (and largely a white nationalism.) But I remain unconvinced about how seriously he takes himself. I think he tends to like the trappings of power but not the exercise of power. Although in some ways that makes him very dangerous, because it leaves open the question of who fills the void. Power is going to be exercised in the United States even if Donald Trump does seem to spend much of his time at the golf course or watching Fox News and tweeting about it. Trump is a bit like Mussolini - who was also a buffoon. Even "MAGA" seems somewhat taken from Mussolini's playbook, although in Mussolini's case it would have been "MREGA" (Make the Roman Empire Great Again.")

What the far right seems to lack today is a Hitler figure. Someone who's not only an extremist and charismatic but who's also at least moderately competent and has a clearly defined agenda and a clearly defined plan for achieving it and who can gain support beyond just his own backyard. Hitler had admirers all over the world, and once the Nazis came to power Nazi-like groups sprung up in many countries, including England. In the US significant figures like Joseph Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh were Nazi sympathizers. Thankfully, there's no one like that in the world today. The closest might be Putin - who, although a former communist, has really become more of a fascist in his tactics, but he doesn't have a notable following outside Russia.


I suspect that Kimmio's purpose in this thread is to demonstrate that there are highly reputable voices being published by highly reputable sources that are raising the same alarm bells that she is. She's not way off base in her concerns. Is she sometimes applying the word "fascist" too broadly? I'd say yes to that. Is she being paranoid to keep bringing it up? I wouldn't agree with that. The rise of the far right is a major concern in today's world, especially in the light of surveys I've cited in the past that suggest that younger generations tend to be more open to authoritarian leaders and less interested in democracy than older generations. They just want things to get done. That's the appeal of strongman leadership - they promise to get things done. That's why Trump started his presidency with his flurry of executive orders - it gave the impression of someone decisive.
 
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Bolsonaro, if he is elected, is truly chilling and a potential Hitler like figure.

Hitler didn’t commit all his evils overnight. But it doesn’t need to be exactly like Hitler for there to be potential for increased seriously violence, potentially deadly, against minorities and serious abuses of human rights, and it could grow into something different but equally, or nearly, as horrible.

I see the potential for the spread of fascism being dangerous in North America because Trump likes to cosy up to dictators, and because Steve Bannon is strategically plotting the rise and spread of the extreme right. And the alt right admires Putin.
 
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The Big Lie.
A good book about truth.

Remember when you used to get a big fat paper. There was a news section and an editorial section. Too bad that is gone.

Poor Kimmio, is trapped in lefty editorials lacking in any news sources and scared s***less.
 
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I have to agree that much of the response to some of what Kimmio is posting is driven by the fact that it's Kimmio posting it and not by a careful consideration of what she's saying.

As much as many of us (including me at times) think that Kimmio may be over-using the word "fascist" and at times seems to be throwing it indiscriminately at anyone who identifies as a "conservative" (I would argue that moderate right wing parties and candidates are important to confronting the far right while Kimmio seems suspicious of them) one cannot deny the frightening (and relatively sudden) rise of the truly far right in Europe. The Independent article she posted about contemporary Italian politics is fascinating and worrisome. I read it myself yesterday and had a feeling it would make an appearance at WC2. The reality is that far right parties are openly participating in European governments from Sweden, through much of Eastern Europe and into southern Europe in places like Greece and Italy, pushing nationalistic, racist and xenophobic policies. I hesitate to call them truly "fascist" because they're lacking what I believe to be some of the key components of fascism - notably, most of them aren't particularly militaristic. But I'd agree that they represent latent or proto-fascism. Such groups are playing less significant but noticeable roles in the politics of places like France and Britain and Germany. One of the engines of the Brexit movement in Britain was the British far right extreme nationalist movement and its fear of open immigration from Europe. Of course, much of the rise of the European right all over the continent has been driven by overt racism in response to the recent migrant crisis. It's been a latent force in many former colonial powers (especially Britain and France) for years and in those countries has fed off of fears about African immigration from former colonies.

I do see what's happening in North America as a little bit different. Here, I see many politicians using some of the tactics of fascism, but in my view without the substance of fascism. Someone like Trump, for instance, is a buffoon who knows what it takes to get himself elected. So he spreads fear and promotes an open nationalism (and largely a white nationalism.) But I remain unconvinced about how seriously he takes himself. I think he tends to like the trappings of power but not the exercise of power. Although in some ways that makes him very dangerous, because it leaves open the question of who fills the void. Power is going to be exercised in the United States even if Donald Trump does seem to spend much of his time at the golf course or watching Fox News and tweeting about it. Trump is a bit like Mussolini - who was also a buffoon. Even "MAGA" seems somewhat taken from Mussolini's playbook, although in Mussolini's case it would have been "MREGA" (Make the Roman Empire Great Again.")

What the far right seems to lack today is a Hitler figure. Someone who's not only an extremist and charismatic but who's also at least moderately competent and has a clearly defined agenda and a clearly defined plan for achieving it and who can gain support beyond just his own backyard. Hitler had admirers all over the world, and once the Nazis came to power Nazi-like groups sprung up in many countries, including England. In the US significant figures like Joseph Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh were Nazi sympathizers. Thankfully, there's no one like that in the world today. The closest might be Putin - who, although a former communist, has really become more of a fascist in his tactics, but he doesn't have a notable following outside Russia.


I suspect that Kimmio's purpose in this thread is to demonstrate that there are highly reputable voices being published by highly reputable sources that are raising the same alarm bells that she is. She's not way off base in her concerns. Is she sometimes applying the word "fascist" too broadly? I'd say yes to that. Is she being paranoid to keep bringing it up? I wouldn't agree with that. The rise of the far right is a major concern in today's world, especially in the light of surveys I've cited in the past that suggest that younger generations tend to be more open to authoritarian leaders and less interested in democracy than older generations. They just want things to get done. That's the appeal of strongman leadership - they promise to get things done. That's why Trump started his presidency with his flurry of executive orders - it gave the impression of someone decisive.
Thank you, btw.
 

revsdd

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Bolsonaro, if he is elected, is truly chilling and a potential Hitler like figure.

Hitler didn’t commit all his evils overnight. But it doesn’t need to be exactly like Hitler for there to be potential for increased seriously violence, potentially deadly, against minorities and serious abuses of human rights, and it could grow into something different but equally, or nearly, as horrible.

I see the potential for the spread of fascism being dangerous in North America because Trump likes to cosy up to dictators, and because Steve Bannon is strategically plotting the rise and spread of the extreme right.
Brazil is not a significant enough country on the world stage for Bolsonaro to become much more than the right wing dictator of Brazil, although he might influence other South American countries. South America is worrisome, in fact. Not many years ago it seemed that the era of dictatorships in South America was over and that democracy was on the rise. But there does seem to be a move back in the authoritarian direction.
 
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Brazil is not a significant enough country on the world stage for Bolsonaro to become much more than the right wing dictator of Brazil, although he might influence other South American countries. South America is worrisome, in fact. Not many years ago it seemed that the era of dictatorships in South America was over and that democracy was on the rise. But there does seem to be a move back in the authoritarian direction.
They are the most important in SA. I wouldn’t discount them as insignificant...and certainly significant for the people there. You never know where the flashpoint, or model, for worse things could originate because we live in a connected world...unlike in 1930s. As it spreads in so many places...we’d better inoculate ourselves the best we can, by learning what to look for.
 

revjohn

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revsdd said:
I have to agree that much of the response to some of what Kimmio is posting is driven by the fact that it's Kimmio posting it and not by a careful consideration of what she's saying.
That would be the logical fallacy known as the "Genetic Fallacy" at play. Also known as "consider the source." It rejects an argument because of who presents the argument rather than the merits of the argument. It is very similar to Ad Hominem arguments which attack the character of an individual and not the position championed.

Generally, this fallacy is very present when the two parties in discussion hold one another in tremendously low regard.
 
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