The Guatemala Civil War

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Graeme Decarie

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,583
Reaction score
1,489
For Waterfall, the NFB film about Guatemala is "Raoul Leger; the elusive truth." Leger was the young man from New Brunswick who became a lay missionary in Guatemala where he was murdered by thugs hired by the U.S. from all over the world and led by George Bush Sr. He now lies buried,, since 1900 or so, in the Catholic graveyard in his hometown. And the newspapers, even in New Brunswick, never even mentioned it.
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Messages
268
Reaction score
220
For Waterfall, the NFB film about Guatemala is "Raoul Leger; the elusive truth." Leger was the young man from New Brunswick who became a lay missionary in Guatemala where he was murdered by thugs hired by the U.S. from all over the world and led by George Bush Sr. He now lies buried,, since 1900 or so, in the Catholic graveyard in his hometown. And the newspapers, even in New Brunswick, never even mentioned it.
I am puzzled about why GW Bush was leading those thugs in Guatemala when he was in the oil business.
 

Graeme Decarie

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,583
Reaction score
1,489
Oh, I don't think it was connected with oil. It was part of a general movement to murder any leaders in Latin America who interfered with American plundering, enforcement of extremely low pay, employment of children....freedom from any taxation of the American corporations..... This is all very much a continuation of the old British, Belgian and French empires. The Catholic Church in Guatemala was a dangerous enemy so far as American (and Canadian) billionaires were concerned.
We live in a world largely dominated by the super wealthy. For the last 3,000 or so years, Emperors, Kings, and now capitalists have used the rest of us to make them richer. In the process, they have almost always got richer while the poor got poorer - or dead. That's true of the whole western world and, I suspect, of China.
In the case of Venezuela, it was selling oil to China and maintaining control of profits for the people of Venezuela. That's why the U.S., quite illegally, cut off the China trade and is now working at putting in a a government that would hand over all the oil profits to American and Canadian billionaires. That, essentially, is the story of Iran, too. That's what the Iraq war was really about.

Over the years, the power has shifted from emperors and kings to our super rich But the purpose has always been the same -to plunder the poor and fatten the super rich. That's why ordinary Americans have been getting poorer for years (especially now). And that's why the American super rich have actually been getting richer - even now.

Is this a subject for a church sermon? No. It never has been. The churches have always given high praise to ardent Christians like George Bush and son. That goes back over ALL of our church history. And if a minister were to try such a sermon? Large mumbers of their congregations would change churches. And so we go on with huge spending to murder foreigners for the benefit of our super rich. The US military budget is now far the biggest such budget in human history. Of course. It makes huge money for capitalists who make the weapons of war who now produce weapons which, for the most part, are used in this modern age to murder civilians and children - quite delberately. In fact, they are the major targets.

In Canada and throughout world war 2, many thousands of Jews escaped Germany, trying to flee to Britain, Canada and the U.S. We knew damn well was happening to them. And in every case, Britain, Canada and the U.S. forced them back to Europe knowing what would happen to them. And,yes, the churches, too, knew all about it. But not a word was said. In fact, no Jews were permitted to come for two years AFTER the war.

And if the clergy raised that issue from the pulpit? Most of the Christians would probably have changed churches.

The war in Afghanistan was and is illegal as well as unChristian. (Afghanistan did not attack New York. That was the work of our good friends in Saudi Arabia.
There was no legal or moral reason to kill Afghanis. (It was done for the same reason the Russians had been killing them. - to steal natural resources.

The war against Iraq was illegal. It was based on a claim of an Iraqi development of nuclear missiles and other weapons. In fact, there was no such development. Our leaders lied because they wanted control of Iraq's oil. And so a million and a half (probably more) were killed with a very high proportion, has been standard in American wars since 1945. And Canada sent troops there knowing that.

It there were sermons about any of that, I missed them. Would Jesus have said anything? Well, yes, I rather think he would have.

I"m not blaming the churches for the silence. That would be glib and unfair.

But remember this. Most of the churches in Hitler's Germany were devoutly Christian. And they were the ones who murdered Jews in the streets and in death camps.
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Messages
268
Reaction score
220
Oh, I don't think it was connected with oil. It was part of a general movement to murder any leaders in Latin America who interfered with American plundering, enforcement of extremely low pay, employment of children....freedom from any taxation of the American corporations..... This is all very much a continuation of the old British, Belgian and French empires. The Catholic Church in Guatemala was a dangerous enemy so far as American (and Canadian) billionaires were concerned.
We live in a world largely dominated by the super wealthy. For the last 3,000 or so years, Emperors, Kings, and now capitalists have used the rest of us to make them richer. In the process, they have almost always got richer while the poor got poorer - or dead. That's true of the whole western world and, I suspect, of China.
In the case of Venezuela, it was selling oil to China and maintaining control of profits for the people of Venezuela. That's why the U.S., quite illegally, cut off the China trade and is now working at putting in a a government that would hand over all the oil profits to American and Canadian billionaires. That, essentially, is the story of Iran, too. That's what the Iraq war was really about.

Over the years, the power has shifted from emperors and kings to our super rich But the purpose has always been the same -to plunder the poor and fatten the super rich. That's why ordinary Americans have been getting poorer for years (especially now). And that's why the American super rich have actually been getting richer - even now.

Is this a subject for a church sermon? No. It never has been. The churches have always given high praise to ardent Christians like George Bush and son. That goes back over ALL of our church history. And if a minister were to try such a sermon? Large mumbers of their congregations would change churches. And so we go on with huge spending to murder foreigners for the benefit of our super rich. The US military budget is now far the biggest such budget in human history. Of course. It makes huge money for capitalists who make the weapons of war who now produce weapons which, for the most part, are used in this modern age to murder civilians and children - quite delberately. In fact, they are the major targets.

In Canada and throughout world war 2, many thousands of Jews escaped Germany, trying to flee to Britain, Canada and the U.S. We knew damn well was happening to them. And in every case, Britain, Canada and the U.S. forced them back to Europe knowing what would happen to them. And,yes, the churches, too, knew all about it. But not a word was said. In fact, no Jews were permitted to come for two years AFTER the war.

And if the clergy raised that issue from the pulpit? Most of the Christians would probably have changed churches.

The war in Afghanistan was and is illegal as well as unChristian. (Afghanistan did not attack New York. That was the work of our good friends in Saudi Arabia.
There was no legal or moral reason to kill Afghanis. (It was done for the same reason the Russians had been killing them. - to steal natural resources.

The war against Iraq was illegal. It was based on a claim of an Iraqi development of nuclear missiles and other weapons. In fact, there was no such development. Our leaders lied because they wanted control of Iraq's oil. And so a million and a half (probably more) were killed with a very high proportion, has been standard in American wars since 1945. And Canada sent troops there knowing that.

It there were sermons about any of that, I missed them. Would Jesus have said anything? Well, yes, I rather think he would have.

I"m not blaming the churches for the silence. That would be glib and unfair.

But remember this. Most of the churches in Hitler's Germany were devoutly Christian. And they were the ones who murdered Jews in the streets and in death camps.
Graeme, Bush's biography indicated he was running an oil company when you have him murdering people. Did I miss something on his biography?
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
Graeme, Bush's biography indicated he was running an oil company when you have him murdering people. Did I miss something on his biography?
You might be better off to check out the history of the Guatamala Civil War and the United Fruit Company. It's amazing how bananas caused such unrest and massacres and yes the CIA was involved.

Then there's this and if you get to the part about the atrocities committed against the Mayans and other supporters of the poor which included the Catholic Church, I guarantee you it will sicken you that humanity could be so cruel:


And I haven't touched about Raoul Leger yet.

Perhaps all these posts about what happened in Guatamala could be relocated to another thread in Politics where this discussion could be continued?
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Messages
268
Reaction score
220
The Canadian Development Corporation lent $500 million (might have been $250 million) to Inco to develop a nickel mine on land that belonged to the Mayans. This mine allowed Inco to let the union in Sudbury have a major strike. Guatemala probably had more human rights abuse than any of the other Central Merican countries, and most of those were against the Mayans. The Canadian Navy provided support to the Americans in the 1930s in suppressing a rebellion led by Sandino (so?).
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
The Canadian Development Corporation lent $500 million (might have been $250 million) to Inco to develop a nickel mine on land that belonged to the Mayans. This mine allowed Inco to let the union in Sudbury have a major strike. Guatemala probably had more human rights abuse than any of the other Central Merican countries, and most of those were against the Mayans. The Canadian Navy provided support to the Americans in the 1930s in suppressing a rebellion led by Sandino (so?).
There's that too.......are you asking "so?" because you think Canadians were justified?
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
Messages
268
Reaction score
220
No, we have been party to abusing a variety of people, mostly Indigenous, for a long time. One of those was in the 1990s with mining operations in the Philippines. There is a lot of blood on our hands
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
I'm starting this thread because of our fellow member, Graeme. He has often referred to the Guatemala Civil War in recent history when arguing about how the churches tend to ignore the plight of "others" and seemingly cozying up with the corporate elite and governments in an ungodly support that actually agrees with the perpetuation of violence towards a defenceless people through our silence. I must confess that I have been very ignorant of this subject. I was not born when this war started but because it was a war that lasted over 30 years it did eventually coincide with my existence but somehow I was not as aware as I should have been as to what was taking place. Perhaps because some of it was "hidden" somewhat in how it was reported. I'm not sure.
So I wonder how many of us can say the same? How is it we are so aware of the atrocities that took place during WW2 with the attempted annihilation of the Jewish people yet possibly are not knowledgeable about what took place in Guatemala and the attempt to destroy the Maya by committing unspeakable horrors? (although I'm sure there are many that did know) There are other genocides that have taken place in recent times also. In Africa, in the former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Palestine, and lets not forget our own native indigenous people, etc....and currently Syria.....many of these places all share the common tactic of foreign armies and governments aiming to destroy the moral fabric of a peoples culture and way of life through exploiting the poor and dehumanizing the people by attacking the civilians including women and children as pawns to win their "wars" in order to gain access and control to another countries resources to benefit themselves. Sometimes a "story" is created to justify armies being brought in.
I wonder if by exploring what happened in Guatemala it might open our eyes to a broader understanding as to why this continues to happen to countries despite saying "never again" over and over again? What are we doing wrong as a common people, even if we do show concern, that is essentially ineffective to stop many of these atrocities from happening or continuing?
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
No, we have been party to abusing a variety of people, mostly Indigenous, for a long time. One of those was in the 1990s with mining operations in the Philippines. There is a lot of blood on our hands
Agree
 

Graeme Decarie

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,583
Reaction score
1,489
For some thousands of years, we were ruled by emperors and kings. We are now ruled by billionaires. And billionaires, like the emperors and kings, care only for themselves, their own wealth and their own power. Christian values mean nothing - though most of the evil people, like the Bush family, are regular church goers.
This is not a criticism of the churches. It's not at all clear to me what they can do.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
For some thousands of years, we were ruled by emperors and kings. We are now ruled by billionaires. And billionaires, like the emperors and kings, care only for themselves, their own wealth and their own power. Christian values mean nothing - though most of the evil people, like the Bush family, are regular church goers.
This is not a criticism of the churches. It's not at all clear to me what they can do.
Started a new post in Politics referring to the Guatemala civil war.....hope you'll join in with your views there?
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Messages
45,552
Reaction score
3,609
Graeme, Bush's biography indicated he was running an oil company when you have him murdering people. Did I miss something on his biography?
Read on to Reagan's biography to see how Regan was oblivious to what was going on around him while his staff was setting up some really dirty activity offshore! Who were those staff? Read deeper ...

And some folk say we are the intelligent race. I go with the old sage that said if you believe you're sane ... you're not. The reciprocal may hold true ... the entire topic drives me to the edge!

However by protocol one is disallowed to speaking in such terms ... thus it gets subtle or sublime ...
 

Mendalla

Eastern Lowland Gorilla
Messages
30,649
Reaction score
14,464
Read on to Reagan's biography to see how Regan was oblivious to what was going on around him while his staff was setting up some really dirty activity offshore!
Sadly, he probably really was oblivious at times, given that he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's after leaving office. No fan of Ronnie but no one deserves to go that way.

As for Guatemala, someone is doing a horror movie based on the situation down there and on the legend of La Llorona (already the subject of a movie a year or two back). It is about a general facing trial for his role in the Mayan genocide so I suspect this will be similar to Guillermo del Toro using Pan's Labyrinth to explore the Spanish Civil War (ie. using fantasy to explore a dark period in reality).

 
Last edited:

Graeme Decarie

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,583
Reaction score
1,489
I feel guilty. Waterfall has asked me to contribute to another series on this topic. I'd love to. But I can't find it.--in the mean time---

Let's have a moment for the animal world. Most animals are not greedy - vicious, but not greedy. A lion kills an animal. That sounds vicious. But that's the way lions survive. We survive in exactly the same way = except that the animal we eat is killed on a farm or in a factory. But we don't stop there. The lion eats only when hungry, then lies down for a nap. we happily go far beyond that.
This began, probably, with the appearance of man (who at first looked like an ape.) But as man got more like we are today, he/she developed a bigger brain.
That gave our ancestor to think far more than his/her ancestors could. It opened the way to a world in which it was possible to kill out of pure greed, to steal, to kill not just for a meal but for power over others. It opened the way from war between peoples, for the creation of leaders (about 5000 years ago)who could force organization on other human animals- thus the rise of emperors and Kings, the exploitation of other peoples, the development of human slavery, a sense, for the powerful, of a right for the abuse of others. There are, perhaps, early traces of that among some apes - but rare among other animals.

Thus the British Empire which inflicted horrible conditions on the hundreds of millions of people it killed. Thus the creation of a George Bush Sr. who could be a senior executive of an oil company and, at the same time, the (distant) chief of an invasion. He was a man obsessed with controlling others - thus the rise of capitalists. There was no distinction between killing Guatemalans and being the chief officer of an oil company. Bush, like his son,was geared to killing for more power. The U.S. brought that attitude all over Latin America - and now in the middle east. There was no distinction between being the chief officer of a corporation, and mass murderer of humans. Both were part of the same job. you can find that all over the British and American empires. In India and China, British corporation heads commonly murdered and plundered in addition to running the company. It was all the same job. Check the behaviour of a Bill Gates in South Africa. It's the same pattern.

And they do this while still being regular church attenders. In their minds, I guess, all that they do is good.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Messages
45,552
Reaction score
3,609
Harold Bloom wrote about this as the only animal that could not be sated.

Then there is a country folk song about rarities of satisfied minds and still others about suspicion! Always that wonder about what the alter ego will do when chewing about in your innards!

That distant gnawing sensation ... accept its approach ...
 

Lastpointe

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,003
Reaction score
1,453
While I agree that man evolved as a very tribal society where we have always fought each other I laugh when people talk about the niceties of the animal world

it is cut throat, survival of the fittest. Big eats small. Mothers toss babies out who are weak. Animals kill in packs, they strike down the weakest around. They pick on species that are relatively defenseless comparatively They certainly don’t just kill for hunger. Ever seen a cat torment a bird or a mouse. That happens in lots of species.

and yes they kill for lots of reasons, not just hunger. Protecting the group, aggression to a outsider, fear of the other, protection of young.......

we do the same

i am in awe of the animal world but I don’t Disneyfy it. It is harsh, aggressive, cruel, and vicious when needed
 

Graeme Decarie

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,583
Reaction score
1,489
I'm afraid you miss the point. Animals are far, far less destructive than humans. Yes, there will be occasional bursts of temper, But animals attack in packs? Some do. But like those who attack singly the attack is for immediate satisfaction of hunger. Human attacking goes far, far beyond that. And we don't organize just a pack. We organize millions. And you know what? We hardly ever eat all that we kill. If we did, we'd have been years just burping the remains of the 15plus million Iraquis we killed.

Some animals have leaders. Some don't. But none come anywhere close to the organization and maintenance of our killing.

As well, there is plenty of evidence that killing by humans is far more savage than killing by animals. There's a useful book that touches on all this. SAPIENS by
Yuval Noah Harari.

Humans have destroyed a great many animal species over the years. It's happening now on a grand scale - and it includes species in the sea. At no point in the evolution of homo sapiens is their evidence of any annihilation of our species - but whole animal species have been wiped out by us - and that slaughter is rapidly increasing. Don't disneyfi humans.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,113
Reaction score
3,614
As well, there is plenty of evidence that killing by humans is far more savage than killing by animals. There's a useful book that touches on all this. SAPIENS by
Yuval Noah Harari.
Agreed, one only has to open up the site I posted above in post#5 called "Guatemala Memory of Silence and scroll down to #85 under "Massacres and the Devastation of the Mayan People" to see what was done to the Mayan (warning graphic account).....my suspicion is that this is not unique when taking over a countries assets.....we currently have Yemen to look at today who have millions of people literally being starved to death, women and children seem to be a preferred target.
 
Top