Socialism and the Bible ------A Cultural Prophecy | Dr. David Jeremiah

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Now to my first question. You are applying a modern attitude on a group of people for whom personal identity had little meaning outside of community identity. The crowd was made of individuals but he was speaking to the crowd. Little of what he said is possible without community. A person who grieves needs comfort provided by the community. A person who is poor in spirit needs the community to enrich their spirits. Peace making can only happen in community. Humility can only be lived out in community.
 
unsafe said:
Interesting read -----

Rev John Piper on Socialism ---he uses Bernie Sander name in this article ------

www.desiringgod.org

How Should Christians Think About Socialism?

How does socialism borrow from the Bible? And how does socialism differ from biblical principles on compassion and justice?
www.desiringgod.org www.desiringgod.org

How Should Christians Think About Socialism?​


Well, I suppose I should put all of my misgivings up front to say I am not an expert in political science or economics. So take it for what it’s worth. Here we go.

God Loves a Cheerful Giver​

I think the first thing I should say is that in the church no one should go hungry. No one should be without a place to stay. No one should fail to get the healthcare they need. No one should go without a job if it is possible for believers to help them find one. And so on. All of this should happen through the free and uncoerced help of other believers.

When Luke writes in Acts 2:44–45, “All who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need,” what he means is that every need was being met by other believers, even if they had to sell things that they owned in order to help meet them — and this was done freely. It didn’t remove but rather presumed the ownership of private property. Indeed, all of the Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament, assumes both the legitimacy — and, I think, the necessity — of personal ownership.

“Thou shalt not steal” makes no sense where no one has a right to keep what is his (Exodus 20:15). The reason I stress that all of this is uncoerced, free, not forced, is because of a heavy emphasis that Paul puts on giving to the poor in 2 Corinthians 8–9 freely, cheerfully, not under compulsion. I remember I had a big debate when I was in Germany with a professor and other students because of the way they fund the state church there through taxes. I said, “That just doesn’t fit — without compulsion, cheerfully and freely.

In other words, there is built into the Christian faith an inner impulse by the Holy Spirit through the gospel to make sacrifices so that others have their needs met. And there is no such impulse built into human nature or the human heart apart from God’s grace. It is so vital that this kind of love and mercy and sacrifice be free and uncoerced that this is laid down as a principle by Paul in 2 Corinthians 9 and by Peter in 1 Peter 5 as he instructs the elders.

Borrowed Compassion​

Now socialism as I understand it (and I don’t know much about it) refers to (1) a social and economic system that through legal or governmental or military coercion (in other words, you go to jail if you don’t do this) establishes social ownership at the expense of private or personal ownership, and/or (2) uses coercion to establish social control — if not ownership, at least control of the means of production in society. And thus, through control, you effectively eliminate many of the implications and motivations of private ownership.

In other words, socialism borrows the compassionate aims of Christianity in meeting people’s needs while rejecting the Christian expectation that this compassion not be coerced or forced. Socialism, therefore, gets its attractiveness at certain points in history where people are drawn to the entitlements that socialism brings, and where people are ignorant or forgetful of the coercion and the force required to implement it — and whether or not that coercion might, in fact, backfire and result in greater poverty or drab uniformity or, worse, the abuse of the coercion, as we saw in the murderous states like the USSR and Cambodia.

Failing Socialist Systems​

It may be that Bernie Sanders is naming things in our society that need addressing. I don’t doubt that is the case. There are, no doubt, real injustices that make it harder for the poor to move out of poverty and make it easier for the rich to do wrong and get away with it. But I doubt that holding up Denmark’s economic model as the way forward (which he does) is the path of wisdom.

Forbes, for example, reports that out of a total population of 5.6 million, a little more than 2 million are state pensioners, unemployed, sick, or on social transfer payments for other reasons. And another 800,000 are employed by the public sector. That’s half the population employed by the state or sustained by money channeled through the state.

Or, to put it another way, out of 5.6 million people in Denmark, there are only about 1.8 million that are not directly dependent on the state for payments of some sort. And even among this group, there is high focus on cheap subsidized childcare, free healthcare, child bonus payments, subsidized housing, and a large number of other ways to secure additional income from the state. Just an example: Students get five years of free tuition at state universities and I read of a married student who gets a $900 stipend from the state and free childcare. So basically, some people are living totally off the state for those university years.

Now, political liberals analyze this all over Europe right now, and everybody says, “These systems are under pressure.” That is the word that is used by liberals. They are under pressure, like most of the entitlement states of Europe. Conservatives say it’s a ticking time bomb. In other words, almost everybody says it can’t go on. The crisis in Greece is the forerunner, and no matter how angry people may get when their entitlements are threatened or taken away, you can’t create tax income out of nowhere. And the support base is not going to be there indefinitely — not to mention other disincentives that plague socialist economies over the long haul.

Compasion, Justice, Freedom​

So for Bernie Sanders, or anyone else, to commend a socialism like that of Denmark as the system that is going to do things well for us is shortsighted, to say the least. So, in general, I would say that the impulses of biblical Christianity include:

  1. compassion for the disadvantaged;
  2. justice under law without respect to status;
  3. freedom to create and produce; and
  4. private property.
And my own sense is that history and reason and further biblical reflection lead to the conclusion that freedom and property rights lead to greater long-term wellbeing, or, like we say today, flourishing for the greatest number. And it should not go unsaid, lastly, that every economic and political system will eventually collapse where there are insufficient moral impulses to restrain human selfishness and encourage honesty and good deeds even when no one is watching.
Click to expand...
Now to your attack on socialism. It is not possible to acquire or increase wealth without access to social structures and infrastructure. Taxes are paid for access to those structures and infrastructure. If the society recognizes that providing for those in need strengthens those structures and uses taxes to enable that provision, it is not theft or taking from the rich to give to the poor. It is charging the rich a commission that is needed to maintain necessary and helpful structures and infrastructure. It is recognition that the social collective is a reality above and including individual realities.
 
In order to lead the social group ... they must be relegated or indoctrinated to the idea they are use less ... thus they go and leave the entire cache as a catchy phrase ... something to raise additional cash?

Winning is not that simple ...
 
jimkenney12 ---you said ----- Little of what he said is possible without community. A person who grieves needs comfort provided by the community. A person who is poor in spirit needs the community to enrich their spirits. Peace making can only happen in community. Humility can only be lived out in community.

I totally disagree with your statement here--------

The Beatitudes are the qualities that true Disciples of God should have ------God is interested in the heart of A PERSON -------The heart of the person has to be open by God to receive the message being preached to inbirth the right faith to believe and understand what Jesus is teaching ----not everyone in the crowd will have their heart open to receive the message ----

without the right Faith it is impossible to understand the message ------and that is from scripture itself ------

Bible Gateway Hebrews 11 :: NIV. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. ... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
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I just posted this you can read the rest yourselves ------

www.christianity.com

What are the Beatitudes? Bible Text and Meaning of Jesus' Teaching

Read What are the Beatitudes? Bible Text and Meaning of Jesus' Teaching by Christianity.com Editorial Staff and more articles about Jesus Christ and Wiki on Christianity.com
www.christianity.com www.christianity.com

Blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God -----

"Poor in spirit" signifies to be humble. Humility is the understanding that all your blessings originate from the love of God. Humility brings openness and inner peace, enabling one to do the will of God. Those who humble themselves are able to admit our fragile nature, to repent, and to permit the love of God to guide us to reformation.

Blessed are those who mourn

Mourning in this meaning is declared a blessing because to mourn our sinful nature produces in us an intention to renew ourselves and to follow the way of God in righteousness. Furthermore, mourning implies the love for people in our lives and will be comforted by the grace of God.

Blessed are the Meek ---

A person that is meek is one that manifests self-control. We are encouraged to be meek in the light of the Lord, and not oppose but be faithful to him. Submission to the will of God can be difficult and tiresome but it will bring peace and tranquility in this world and in the next.

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I say -------These Beatitudes are all about the individual -and having a personal relationship with God --they have nothing to do with a community ----comfort comes from God not us -------and unless you have come to the realisation that you need God in your life to accomplish the Beatitudes you will fail them ------

Now you can think different and that is your right ---but these Beatitudes are all about the individual coming to God and allowing Him to be the guide --that is what I believe ----

Without God we can do nothing and that is what scripture says ------

John 15:5

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
 
jimkenney12

Here is an article for you -----about your trusting taxes to help the poor ---God Provided His People with all they needed to look after the poor -------God's economic system is very reliable to ensue the poor are looked after ------your tax system deprives the poor -----that is how I see it -----The world is corrupt and will remain same until Jesus comes back and fixes it -----

read all
www.oxfam.org

Inequality and poverty: the hidden costs of tax dodging | Oxfam International

www.oxfam.org www.oxfam.org

Inequality and poverty: the hidden costs of tax dodging​


Tax havens fuel inequality and hold back the fight against poverty. This simply has to stop.

Since 2014, a huge number of documents have revealed how powerful corporations and super-rich individuals are exploiting a rigged global system that allows them to avoid paying their fair share of tax. And it’s the world’s poorest people who pay the price.

Our world is not short of wealth. The size of the global economy has almost quintupled over the past 30 years. In 2017, its value reached nearly $78 trillion.

Yet, the gap between rich and poor gets wider, with a massive increase in wealth at the top, while the total wealth owned by those at the bottom is falling. Since 2015, the richest 1% have more wealth than the rest of the world combined.

Such extreme economic inequality is being fueled by an epidemic of tax evasion and avoidance that has reached an unprecedented scale. While millions across the world live in poverty, rich individuals and companies, exploiting the secrecy provided by tax havens, are continuing to dodge their taxes, depriving the poorest countries from being able to provide vital services.

I say --this says the poor are being robbed by companies serving themselves -----by greed and the love of money -----they care less about the poor --

Jesus says this -----you can't serve God and money -----

Matthew 6:24 NIV​

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
 
I say ---so the debate goes on -----Was Jesus a Socialist or not ------

Interesting read -----read all for yourselves -----

No, Jesus Wasn't a Socialist | Lawrence W. Reed

In Luke 12:13-15, Jesus is approached with a redistribution request. “Master, speak to my brother that he divideth the inheritance with me,” a man asks. Jesus replied, “Man, who made me a judge or divider over you?” Then he rebuked the petitioner for his envy.
fee.org

Christianity is not about passing the buck to the government when it comes to relieving the plight of the poor​

In Jesus’s Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, the story upholds capitalist virtues, not socialist ones.​

​

No, Jesus Wasn't a Socialist​

Christian charity, being voluntary and heartfelt, is utterly distinct from the compulsory, impersonal mandates of the state.

The claim that Jesus Christ was a socialist has become a popular refrain among liberals, even from some whose Christianity is lukewarm at best. But is there any truth in it?

One can scour the New Testament and find nary a word from Jesus that calls for empowering politicians or bureaucrats to allocate resources, pick winners and losers, tell entrepreneurs how to run their businesses, impose minimum wages or maximum prices, compel workers to join unions, or even to raise taxes. When the Pharisees attempted to trick Jesus of Nazareth into endorsing tax evasion, he cleverly allowed others to decide what properly belongs to the State by responding, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and to God that which is God’s.”
 
And God gave everything the people needed ... trouble is it passed through the hands of those believing they were winners ... they disbelieved Charon ... Moonies ... where the son don' tshine ...

God allowed mistakes for some to learn ... many didn't ...
 
And Jesus was definitely not a capitalist.
unsafe said:
jimkenney12 ---you said ----- Little of what he said is possible without community. A person who grieves needs comfort provided by the community. A person who is poor in spirit needs the community to enrich their spirits. Peace making can only happen in community. Humility can only be lived out in community.

I totally disagree with your statement here--------

The Beatitudes are the qualities that true Disciples of God should have ------God is interested in the heart of A PERSON -------The heart of the person has to be open by God to receive the message being preached to inbirth the right faith to believe and understand what Jesus is teaching ----not everyone in the crowd will have their heart open to receive the message ----

without the right Faith it is impossible to understand the message ------and that is from scripture itself ------

Bible Gateway Hebrews 11 :: NIV. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. ... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just posted this you can read the rest yourselves ------

www.christianity.com

What are the Beatitudes? Bible Text and Meaning of Jesus' Teaching

Read What are the Beatitudes? Bible Text and Meaning of Jesus' Teaching by Christianity.com Editorial Staff and more articles about Jesus Christ and Wiki on Christianity.com
www.christianity.com www.christianity.com

Blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God -----

"Poor in spirit" signifies to be humble. Humility is the understanding that all your blessings originate from the love of God. Humility brings openness and inner peace, enabling one to do the will of God. Those who humble themselves are able to admit our fragile nature, to repent, and to permit the love of God to guide us to reformation.

Blessed are those who mourn

Mourning in this meaning is declared a blessing because to mourn our sinful nature produces in us an intention to renew ourselves and to follow the way of God in righteousness. Furthermore, mourning implies the love for people in our lives and will be comforted by the grace of God.

Blessed are the Meek ---

A person that is meek is one that manifests self-control. We are encouraged to be meek in the light of the Lord, and not oppose but be faithful to him. Submission to the will of God can be difficult and tiresome but it will bring peace and tranquility in this world and in the next.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say -------These Beatitudes are all about the individual -and having a personal relationship with God --they have nothing to do with a community ----comfort comes from God not us -------and unless you have come to the realisation that you need God in your life to accomplish the Beatitudes you will fail them ------

Now you can think different and that is your right ---but these Beatitudes are all about the individual coming to God and allowing Him to be the guide --that is what I believe ----

Without God we can do nothing and that is what scripture says ------

John 15:5

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Click to expand...
You can disagree with my statement. That does make it wrong. You have not answered my question if a person who hoards wealth can be a follower of Jesus.
 
unsafe said:
I say ---so the debate goes on -----Was Jesus a Socialist or not ------

Interesting read -----read all for yourselves -----

No, Jesus Wasn't a Socialist | Lawrence W. Reed

In Luke 12:13-15, Jesus is approached with a redistribution request. “Master, speak to my brother that he divideth the inheritance with me,” a man asks. Jesus replied, “Man, who made me a judge or divider over you?” Then he rebuked the petitioner for his envy.
fee.org

Christianity is not about passing the buck to the government when it comes to relieving the plight of the poor​

In Jesus’s Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, the story upholds capitalist virtues, not socialist ones.​

​

No, Jesus Wasn't a Socialist​

Christian charity, being voluntary and heartfelt, is utterly distinct from the compulsory, impersonal mandates of the state.

The claim that Jesus Christ was a socialist has become a popular refrain among liberals, even from some whose Christianity is lukewarm at best. But is there any truth in it?

One can scour the New Testament and find nary a word from Jesus that calls for empowering politicians or bureaucrats to allocate resources, pick winners and losers, tell entrepreneurs how to run their businesses, impose minimum wages or maximum prices, compel workers to join unions, or even to raise taxes. When the Pharisees attempted to trick Jesus of Nazareth into endorsing tax evasion, he cleverly allowed others to decide what properly belongs to the State by responding, “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and to God that which is God’s.”
Click to expand...
How does the parable of the vineyard uphold capitalist values? Employers in socialist and capitalist societies are free to pay their employees more than they earned.

Your attack on taxes misses the point that capitalists are the ones gaming the system. They do that because people fighting for fairness and justice made many countries charge a reasonable fee for access to the resources of their societies and capitalists resent paying their way.
 
Could the parable of the vineyard have a hidden (gnostic science) to it?

You know science is often put down by the fixed piety! Thus blind faith as sometimes the carpenter's assistants refuse the I C Roué AElle ...
 
jimkenney12 ------you ask ----How does the parable of the vineyard uphold capitalist values?

My view here -----the wages the owner put out to the first workers in a voluntary contract were agreed upon by the workers before they went to work ------the second lot worked less and were given no wage that they would be paid in their voluntary contract ---they were told that they would get paid a fair wage ------and they agreed upon that contract ----and it was the owner's decision not a union or the government decision to pay the workers the same wage ---the owner was definitely free to offer a a higher rate if he wants to ----that is true ----but he chose to pay the same to all workers ----

From what i understand about Capitalism -----is it seen a moral ----

From Google ====
capitalism is moral because — unlike socialism — it respects individuals, their rights, and their pursuit of happiness.

People also ask​

How does capitalism effect workers​

For someone who owns a company and employs other workers, capitalism may make sense: The more profits your company brings in, the more resources you have to share with your workers, which theoretically improves everyone's standard of living.


From Google ---

People also ask​

How do wages work in socialism?​

Wages are one of the most important economic instruments through which each worker in socialist society is given a personal material interest in the results of his work: he who works more and better also receives more. ...

I say -----The first workers were very annoyed and upset at the owner's decision to pay the same wage to the last lot ---and that happens all the time today -----in our Socialist world
 
Under capitalism, mining companies poison the water and land of the local inhabitants, push them off of land they were using, while taking a resource that should have belonged to them. Where is respect for individual rights being shown? Under capitalism, an oil exploration firm uses fracking to obtain natural gas and poisons the well water for local residents. Where is the respect for individual rights? Under capitalism, a hedge fund operator buys Sears Canada, strips most of its assets and pays them to himself, then leaves the employees without their pension plan into which they have paid while working For Sears. Where is the respect for individual rights?
 
This is my view ------Christians can say they are a Socialist or a Capitalist or both ------and how they see both interpreted in Scripture and in this wicked world is their choice ------

First off--- the words Socialist and Capitalist are never mention in Scripture ---they are man made terms and man made definitions---they have nothing to do with what Jesus stood for ---

Marx is the author of Socialism not Jesus ---and apparently Louis Blanc is the author of capitalism -----not Jesus

From google
Who invented the term capitalism

During this period, the term "capitalism"—originating from the Latin word "capitalis," which means "head of cattle"—was first used by French socialist Louis Blanc in 1850, to signify a system of exclusive ownership of industrial means of production by private individuals rather than shared ownership.
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I say
Jesus Christ was neither one nor did He teach on neither one ---the teachings of Jesus were about Spiritual-Matters -----Jesus was the author and finisher of Faith and His Father sent Him to save sinners and be a mediator to bridge the gap between God and man ----He was interested in the person's heart not their financial status -----His Father laid the laws of the land down so that His chosen people would benefit and that included the poor--the sick and the downtroddened -----God's economic system worked for the good of these people --that is the way I see it -----
 
I would say not, but I suspect you're not asking me.

I would also say that someone who hoards wealth is doing capitalism wrong. The whole point of wealth in capitalism is to keep reinvesting it, which provides the capital for new innovations, keeping people employed and paid, and so on. The worst thing that ever happened to capitalism were things like corporate raiding and hedge fund trading and such that make money from destroying rather than building. Or by shuffling money around rather than using it to create innovation and opportunities.

To my eye, venture capitalists are the ones doing it right today. Yes, they get rich, but they also help others get their ideas and innovations off the ground, which in turn creates new jobs, sometimes ones that have never existed before. It is certainly where some of my millions would go if I had that kind of capital at hand.

So as far as Jesus, my answer is that he was a spiritual leader, not an economist or political theorist, so likely would accept any economic system provided space was carved out for God and God's commandments. Capitalism could work just as well as any other if capitalists "rendered unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and rendered unto God, that which is God's." Someone who hoarded money and got rich off the backs off others would be as unacceptable to Jesus today as it was 2000 years ago. But capitalism need not be about that, even if it has become that all too often. Capitalism done right should enrich the workers AND the investors, not just the latter.
 
They cannot answer due to the common loss of that other wealth that was common ... and now individualized as a monster!

Thus thought, knowledge and information descend into a shadowy place ... weird spot?

Apparently black as demos ...
 
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