Socialism and the Bible ------A Cultural Prophecy | Dr. David Jeremiah

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Redbaron

Pirate fan since the dark ages
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I tend to use the term 'realm.' At least it sounds a bit more neutral than 'bailiwick.'
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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You talk, unsafe, as if there were only two sides, two systems. There's a veritable multitude of human social systems, from a purer communism/marxism, through socialism, to social democracy, to socially-supportive free market capitalism, and an infinite combination of these? Your initial post suggests that God, in the person of this particular single preacher, and a few supporting websites, is the right way. I'm here to say that life/society/systems are a whole lot more complicated and misunderstood than a single YouTube "doctor" can preach.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Sweden , Norway, and possibly even Canada seem to have a hybrid system of both capitalism and socialism combined.
There can be many pitfalls to socialism where everyone is treated the same, such as stifling innovation, resentment from lack of entreprenership, possibly progress, it may reduce a lack of motivation to work hard and give too much control to govt. over individual rights.
Perhaps limited capitalism is the buffer to socialism?
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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As I stated above in one of my posts to Rev. John that is exactly how I described Gods Kingdom, or however one prefers to describe it, the question I asked was what system describes that?

None of them. Our economic world is based in global capitalism. By its very definition, a pure market capitalism requires, absolutely, continuous growth. We can fake it, which we do, by printing money, but ultimately, the resources are finite. Because of this existential dilemma, it's sorta screwed, but it's the "system", globally, that exists. How you "fix it", don't entirely know. Read carefully Picketty's 21st century economics. I've been working on it. It's a hard and complicated read.
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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She/Her/Her
Much of the EU system is similarly capitalism/socialism light, depending on the country. The UK has strongly socialist systems, particularly their spectacular cradle to grave health system, very top notch.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Have never embraced the kin-dom thing myself.

We are all related to stuff like that which causes chaos in the matter and manna 've mankind in general! So much dirt to gather ...

Could be the mistress of the hob cleaning out and whipping up a dust thingy ... unspeakable item!

Thus that was Eire 'doubt ... mine dew not simple ... fundamentally dispositioned ... enter antimatter ... and it is hard to resist that as radically exposed ...
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
You talk, unsafe, as if there were only two sides, two systems. There's a veritable multitude of human social systems, from a purer communism/marxism, through socialism, to social democracy, to socially-supportive free market capitalism, and an infinite combination of these? Your initial post suggests that God, in the person of this particular single preacher, and a few supporting websites, is the right way. I'm here to say that life/society/systems are a whole lot more complicated and misunderstood than a single YouTube "doctor" can preach.

This raises the question of eternal and prolific views and thus poly Amory ... which may be a more off than taken on by hateful piety! Feel-X as alien sensation comes up again ... catty?
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member

Interesting article -----read all here​

Jesus and the Bible Don’t Teach Socialism



Jesus’s sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, has nothing to do with the role of government. It was directed to His listeners as individuals. In other words, his listeners – not the Jewish government or the Roman government – were encouraged to give charity to those in need. Charity is a voluntary giving, whereas socialism is a forced redistribution of wealth – the taking from those who have more and giving it to those who have less.

If you believe that Jesus would approve of using the government to force charity (i.e., socialism), then you should be logically consistent and say that Jesus would also approve of using the government to force Christian evangelism, since that is another of Christ’s directives to His followers.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the role of government is charity. The role of our Constitutional Republic is to protect our unalienable rights (as stated in the Declaration of Independence) and our safety (via Article 1: Section 8 of the Constitution) – not to grant entitlements. Thomas Jefferson stated: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

Theologically, socialism breaks three of the ten commandments.

The 8th commandment says that “Thou shall not steal.” Stealing is the forceful taking of property or money that belongs to others. Whether a thief steals your money at the barrel of a gun, or the government takes your money by forced tyrannical taxation, socialism, or at the barrel of a gun in communism, it is still theft. Taxes for entitlements are merely a way to extort forced charity for others.

The apostle Paul says in II Thessalonians 3:10, “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”

The Levitical law commanded t
he Israelite farmers not to harvest the outer portion of their fields or go back over their vineyards a second time. This was to be left for the poor in the land who would come and “glean” the fields for their food. However, the poor had to work for it. They didn’t get to dip into the farmers’ grain baskets to take produce already harvested or force a farmer to give his harvested grain away.

Socialism also breaks the 10th commandment: “You shall not covet your neighbors’ goods.” We hear the social justice warriors today saying that it’s not “fair” that someone should have more than someone else. Really? The Biblical principle is not forced redistribution. If you desire what someone else has, you work for it, not covet and steal what they have honestly earned by their labor. This is true social justice.

And finally, socialism breaks the 1st commandment: “You shall have no other Gods before Me.”

When Christians give charity with their time and money, who gets the glory? God does. When government becomes Santa Claus handing out entitlements, who gets to glory? The government and politicians! Therefore, government has now become their god.

Voluntary compassion from a person or a group builds, teaches, and strengthens; but compassion from government always creates dependency, a spirit of entitlement, and an expectation that this entitlement is a “right.” It discourages any motivation to change.

Charity is efficient. Socialism is inefficient. Statistically, of every dollar given as charity, 85% or more goes to the recipient. Government entitlement programs are just the opposite. Less than 15% of every dollar gets to the recipient. This is referred to as distributional loss in economic systems.

Socialism is not social justice. It is social oppression. It spreads misery around, not success and wealth.

In the Parable of the 10 Talents, Jesus praised the man given the most money, because he made the wisest investments for his master. Then the master took the money from the lowest paid man and gave it to the man with the most money, because the man who received the least squandered his gift. That doesn’t fit the “fairness” and “social justice” mantra today.

No, Jesus was not a socialist and the Bible does not promote socialism.

We give God the glory with voluntary charity and service. This is how you love your neighbor, and thereby God gets the glory, not the government.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say ---No Goverment involvement here just God -----

The Israelite's were given property and God put laws in place to make sure that righteous dealings took place ------verse 23 say we are the aliens living on God's land -----this planet belongs to God not the Government or anyone else still today ----

Thou shall not steal ---is one commandment -----

Read all of Leviticus 25 -NIV ---just posting certain scripture here ----


14 “‘If you sell land to any of your own people or buy land from them, do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your own people on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. And they are to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase the price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, because what is really being sold to you is the number of crops. 17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

23 “‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.

24 Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

25 “‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold. 26 If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves, 27 they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property. 28 But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property

35 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say ---Socialism breaks the commandment ----do not steal -----

God had His own economic system ------and this system was set up to include and looked after the poor as well as His people ----who were Blessed by God with all they needed to help the poor -----

Proverbs 13:11
Verse Concepts
Wealth obtained by fraud dwindles,
But the one who gathers by labor increases it.

Source: 27 Bible verses about Business Ethics
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
With regards to the sermon, I was sort of thinking along the lines you stated above with regards to political systems.....but it got me wondering how would one describe Gods kingdom?
A Monarchy? Or is there a system that puts a leader in charge that thinks of others first and only serves others?
Caters to the lost,the poor, the weak to lift them up?
Lead from the bottom and not the top? Would it work?
What IS Gods kingdom?
In my comment on the Worry thread, I included the idea of a community of people who worry what might happen to someone else if they do not act. One of my theology courses looked at Jesus as a peace seeking anarchist which connected to me. I believe the Kingdom will be a community with distributed power and shared responsibilities. People with management roles will be in those roles to facilitate the community in providing for all.
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member

Interesting article -----read all here​

Jesus and the Bible Don’t Teach Socialism



Jesus’s sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, has nothing to do with the role of government. It was directed to His listeners as individuals. In other words, his listeners – not the Jewish government or the Roman government – were encouraged to give charity to those in need. Charity is a voluntary giving, whereas socialism is a forced redistribution of wealth – the taking from those who have more and giving it to those who have less.

If you believe that Jesus would approve of using the government to force charity (i.e., socialism), then you should be logically consistent and say that Jesus would also approve of using the government to force Christian evangelism, since that is another of Christ’s directives to His followers.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say the role of government is charity. The role of our Constitutional Republic is to protect our unalienable rights (as stated in the Declaration of Independence) and our safety (via Article 1: Section 8 of the Constitution) – not to grant entitlements. Thomas Jefferson stated: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

Theologically, socialism breaks three of the ten commandments.

The 8th commandment says that “Thou shall not steal.” Stealing is the forceful taking of property or money that belongs to others. Whether a thief steals your money at the barrel of a gun, or the government takes your money by forced tyrannical taxation, socialism, or at the barrel of a gun in communism, it is still theft. Taxes for entitlements are merely a way to extort forced charity for others.

The apostle Paul says in II Thessalonians 3:10, “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”

The Levitical law commanded t
he Israelite farmers not to harvest the outer portion of their fields or go back over their vineyards a second time. This was to be left for the poor in the land who would come and “glean” the fields for their food. However, the poor had to work for it. They didn’t get to dip into the farmers’ grain baskets to take produce already harvested or force a farmer to give his harvested grain away.

Socialism also breaks the 10th commandment: “You shall not covet your neighbors’ goods.” We hear the social justice warriors today saying that it’s not “fair” that someone should have more than someone else. Really? The Biblical principle is not forced redistribution. If you desire what someone else has, you work for it, not covet and steal what they have honestly earned by their labor. This is true social justice.

And finally, socialism breaks the 1st commandment: “You shall have no other Gods before Me.”

When Christians give charity with their time and money, who gets the glory? God does. When government becomes Santa Claus handing out entitlements, who gets to glory? The government and politicians! Therefore, government has now become their god.

Voluntary compassion from a person or a group builds, teaches, and strengthens; but compassion from government always creates dependency, a spirit of entitlement, and an expectation that this entitlement is a “right.” It discourages any motivation to change.

Charity is efficient. Socialism is inefficient. Statistically, of every dollar given as charity, 85% or more goes to the recipient. Government entitlement programs are just the opposite. Less than 15% of every dollar gets to the recipient. This is referred to as distributional loss in economic systems.

Socialism is not social justice. It is social oppression. It spreads misery around, not success and wealth.

In the Parable of the 10 Talents, Jesus praised the man given the most money, because he made the wisest investments for his master. Then the master took the money from the lowest paid man and gave it to the man with the most money, because the man who received the least squandered his gift. That doesn’t fit the “fairness” and “social justice” mantra today.

No, Jesus was not a socialist and the Bible does not promote socialism.

We give God the glory with voluntary charity and service. This is how you love your neighbor, and thereby God gets the glory, not the government.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say ---No Goverment involvement here just God -----

The Israelite's were given property and God put laws in place to make sure that righteous dealings took place ------verse 23 say we are the aliens living on God's land -----this planet belongs to God not the Government or anyone else still today ----

Thou shall not steal ---is one commandment -----

Read all of Leviticus 25 -NIV ---just posting certain scripture here ----


14 “‘If you sell land to any of your own people or buy land from them, do not take advantage of each other. 15 You are to buy from your own people on the basis of the number of years since the Jubilee. And they are to sell to you on the basis of the number of years left for harvesting crops. 16 When the years are many, you are to increase the price, and when the years are few, you are to decrease the price, because what is really being sold to you is the number of crops. 17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

23 “‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.

24 Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

25 “‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold. 26 If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves, 27 they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property. 28 But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property

35 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say ---Socialism breaks the commandment ----do not steal -----

God had His own economic system ------and this system was set up to include and looked after the poor as well as His people ----who were Blessed by God with all they needed to help the poor -----

Proverbs 13:11
Verse Concepts
Wealth obtained by fraud dwindles,
But the one who gathers by labor increases it.

Source: 27 Bible verses about Business Ethics
Why do you insist the sermon was addressed to individuals? Can a person who hoards wealth be a follower of Jesus?
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
jimkenney12------you ask -----Why do you insist the sermon was addressed to individuals?


I ask you ---What makes you think it is not directed to individual people ----we have free will to either accept and do the beatitudes or not -----Jesus is teaching here to a crowd of individual people who can then make their own choice to be Blessed or not by following Jesus teachings ----

jimkenney12 ---you ask ---Can a person who hoards wealth be a follower of Jesus?

I say ----God has no problem with people who are true followers of Him having wealth ------For it is God who gives the wealth that falls in the hands of the true follower --and the person knows that it is God who give them the ability and accessibility to get this wealth ------and the person will do the right thing with the wealth which is to Bless others not to hoard it for themselves as they Love the Lord and will honour His will -----

Deuteronomy 8 NIV
Do Not Forget the Lord

16 He gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, something your ancestors had never known, to humble and test you so that in the end it might go well with you.

17 You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.”

18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.


I say -----So anyone who hoards wealth is not of God ----as Greed and the Love of money is their god -----that is how I see it ----
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Correction from my above post ------I said ---we have free will to either accept and do the beatitudes or not -it should be and Believe the beatitudes or not ------
 

GordW

Church-Geek-Oramus
Pronouns
He/Him/His
See the LEvitical law is fulll of what we would now call socialist ideas. The commandments about ensuring tithing, the commandment about leaving the edges of the fields for gleaning, the sabbath and jubilee year commandments all have a major role in ensuring communal heath, the well being of the commonwealth. It is issing the point to saw these are religious obligations or that they are about God not government --- this distinction is not really envisioned as the way people re meant to live in Torah. The people are to live as if God was thier "king" so religious obligation and governmental rules are one and the same.

Mind you ther is little to no evidence taht the jubiee commandments, which are clearly a redistribution of wealth to restore Shalom, were ever actually lived out. So even in Jewish Scripture the most 'socialist' (to use a modern economic term that is anachronistic to the world of Scripture) idea is more of a possibility than a reality.
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
Pronouns
She/Her/Her
I think that most could agree that an analysis of both Hebrew Scripture and Christian New Testament would agree on a couple of things: preferential treatment for the metaphorical "widow and orphan"/"the least among you"; and a responsibility of those with much to share with those with little.

I don't see much wiggle room in those two directives.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
I think that most could agree that an analysis of both Hebrew Scripture and Christian New Testament would agree on a couple of things: preferential treatment for the metaphorical "widow and orphan"/"the least among you"; and a responsibility of those with much to share with those with little.

I don't see much wiggle room in those two directives.

Except for those willful about controlling the entire collective ... a god encompassing order that isolates heh!

I recall in grade school being told the entire process was about psyche control or mental confinement ... as perhaps thoughts an intelligence is evil ... beyond that circle ... guess what?

There may be some progressive improvement over radicalization of polity ...
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
If one really looks at the Tithe -------it is all about the Lesser giving to the Greater -----and that goes against Socialism ----which relies on the Greater giving to the Lesser ------

In Genesis 14 ---Abraham rescues his brother Lot who has been taken captive ------Abraham is grateful to God for giving him the victory ----

17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say -----so we see here that Melchizedek is higher than Abraham in status -------Abraham is Blessed by Melchizedek and because God had given him victory ---he gave him a tenth of everything ------

The Tithe today is still all about us who are the Lesser giving our tenth to God who is the Greater ------

there were 3 types of tithes in the Torah----


the sacred tithe ------Numbers 18

The tithe of the feasts ----Deuteronomy 14

Tithe for the poor -----Deuteronomy 14 -----

if you read this you will see that this tithe for the poor was only every 3 years -----still it is the Lesser giving the tenth to the Greater -----which goes against Socialism in my view ----

Verses 28-29
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say ----and Note that God then Blesses the works of the hands so that they will have the means to Tithe to God for His means to serve the poor ------No Government Blesses a person with the means of providing for the poor ------God's economic system keeps providing for the poor ----

Tithing is all about Faith and trusting God to do as He says He will do ----God gives people the choice to be blessed or cursed in Deuteronomy 28 -----Blessed for obedience and Curse for disobedience -----and so God does not Force people to tithe ---we choose to be blessed or cursed ----God even wants people to test Him on giving the tithe -----and see if they are not Blessed to the fullest -----

Malachi-3:10 NIV
10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

I say ---our job is to do as God says and Test it -------Obedience is key -----


I say -----
As far as God and the Government being the same -----I think Jesus addresses that when He says Give Caesar what is Caesar's and Give God what is God's -------so I personally think that we are to honour the lesser authority in good conscience as it was instituted by the Greater authority who is God ----and by following the earthly authority this should not interfere with our following of our spiritual authority -----just my view ----
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Interesting read -----

Rev John Piper on Socialism ---he uses Bernie Sander name in this article ------

How Should Christians Think About Socialism?​


Well, I suppose I should put all of my misgivings up front to say I am not an expert in political science or economics. So take it for what it’s worth. Here we go.

God Loves a Cheerful Giver​

I think the first thing I should say is that in the church no one should go hungry. No one should be without a place to stay. No one should fail to get the healthcare they need. No one should go without a job if it is possible for believers to help them find one. And so on. All of this should happen through the free and uncoerced help of other believers.

When Luke writes in Acts 2:44–45, “All who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need,” what he means is that every need was being met by other believers, even if they had to sell things that they owned in order to help meet them — and this was done freely. It didn’t remove but rather presumed the ownership of private property. Indeed, all of the Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament, assumes both the legitimacy — and, I think, the necessity — of personal ownership.

“Thou shalt not steal” makes no sense where no one has a right to keep what is his (Exodus 20:15). The reason I stress that all of this is uncoerced, free, not forced, is because of a heavy emphasis that Paul puts on giving to the poor in 2 Corinthians 8–9 freely, cheerfully, not under compulsion. I remember I had a big debate when I was in Germany with a professor and other students because of the way they fund the state church there through taxes. I said, “That just doesn’t fit — without compulsion, cheerfully and freely.

In other words, there is built into the Christian faith an inner impulse by the Holy Spirit through the gospel to make sacrifices so that others have their needs met. And there is no such impulse built into human nature or the human heart apart from God’s grace. It is so vital that this kind of love and mercy and sacrifice be free and uncoerced that this is laid down as a principle by Paul in 2 Corinthians 9 and by Peter in 1 Peter 5 as he instructs the elders.

Borrowed Compassion​

Now socialism as I understand it (and I don’t know much about it) refers to (1) a social and economic system that through legal or governmental or military coercion (in other words, you go to jail if you don’t do this) establishes social ownership at the expense of private or personal ownership, and/or (2) uses coercion to establish social control — if not ownership, at least control of the means of production in society. And thus, through control, you effectively eliminate many of the implications and motivations of private ownership.

In other words, socialism borrows the compassionate aims of Christianity in meeting people’s needs while rejecting the Christian expectation that this compassion not be coerced or forced. Socialism, therefore, gets its attractiveness at certain points in history where people are drawn to the entitlements that socialism brings, and where people are ignorant or forgetful of the coercion and the force required to implement it — and whether or not that coercion might, in fact, backfire and result in greater poverty or drab uniformity or, worse, the abuse of the coercion, as we saw in the murderous states like the USSR and Cambodia.

Failing Socialist Systems​

It may be that Bernie Sanders is naming things in our society that need addressing. I don’t doubt that is the case. There are, no doubt, real injustices that make it harder for the poor to move out of poverty and make it easier for the rich to do wrong and get away with it. But I doubt that holding up Denmark’s economic model as the way forward (which he does) is the path of wisdom.

Forbes, for example, reports that out of a total population of 5.6 million, a little more than 2 million are state pensioners, unemployed, sick, or on social transfer payments for other reasons. And another 800,000 are employed by the public sector. That’s half the population employed by the state or sustained by money channeled through the state.

Or, to put it another way, out of 5.6 million people in Denmark, there are only about 1.8 million that are not directly dependent on the state for payments of some sort. And even among this group, there is high focus on cheap subsidized childcare, free healthcare, child bonus payments, subsidized housing, and a large number of other ways to secure additional income from the state. Just an example: Students get five years of free tuition at state universities and I read of a married student who gets a $900 stipend from the state and free childcare. So basically, some people are living totally off the state for those university years.

Now, political liberals analyze this all over Europe right now, and everybody says, “These systems are under pressure.” That is the word that is used by liberals. They are under pressure, like most of the entitlement states of Europe. Conservatives say it’s a ticking time bomb. In other words, almost everybody says it can’t go on. The crisis in Greece is the forerunner, and no matter how angry people may get when their entitlements are threatened or taken away, you can’t create tax income out of nowhere. And the support base is not going to be there indefinitely — not to mention other disincentives that plague socialist economies over the long haul.

Compasion, Justice, Freedom​

So for Bernie Sanders, or anyone else, to commend a socialism like that of Denmark as the system that is going to do things well for us is shortsighted, to say the least. So, in general, I would say that the impulses of biblical Christianity include:

  1. compassion for the disadvantaged;
  2. justice under law without respect to status;
  3. freedom to create and produce; and
  4. private property.
And my own sense is that history and reason and further biblical reflection lead to the conclusion that freedom and property rights lead to greater long-term wellbeing, or, like we say today, flourishing for the greatest number. And it should not go unsaid, lastly, that every economic and political system will eventually collapse where there are insufficient moral impulses to restrain human selfishness and encourage honesty and good deeds even when no one is watching.
 
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Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Leaves us with the choice of whether Jesus was a socialist or a communist ... the tyrant just doesn't fit in with the insecurities about balance of given take!

Authorities of corruption just have this odor ...
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
jimkenney12------you ask -----Why do you insist the sermon was addressed to individuals?


I ask you ---What makes you think it is not directed to individual people ----we have free will to either accept and do the beatitudes or not -----Jesus is teaching here to a crowd of individual people who can then make their own choice to be Blessed or not by following Jesus teachings ----

jimkenney12 ---you ask ---Can a person who hoards wealth be a follower of Jesus?

I say ----God has no problem with people who are true followers of Him having wealth ------For it is God who gives the wealth that falls in the hands of the true follower --and the person knows that it is God who give them the ability and accessibility to get this wealth ------and the person will do the right thing with the wealth which is to Bless others not to hoard it for themselves as they Love the Lord and will honour His will -----

Deuteronomy 8 NIV
Do Not Forget the Lord

16 He gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, something your ancestors had never known, to humble and test you so that in the end it might go well with you.

17 You may say to yourself, “My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me.”

18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today.


I say -----So anyone who hoards wealth is not of God ----as Greed and the Love of money is their god -----that is how I see it ----
Please answer my second question. Can a person who hoards wealth be a follower of Jesus?
 
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