Salvation and Personal Growth? Incompatible?

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Redbaron

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Here's another interesting read from Pantheos, that might make for good discussion here. Look it over, ponder, and let us know what you think.

 

Luce NDs

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Once locked into the spiritual lockup ... where can one proceed to? One thus becomes a self-imposed edifice ... a hard case!
 

Mendalla

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You know, Patheos would really improve their credibility if they scrapped the bs clickbait ads like "Awkward moments that wedding photographers captured when they should not have." I have MSN and Yahoo for crap like that.

I will respond to the article itself later.
 
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You know, Patheos would really improve their credibility if they scrapped the bs clickbait ads like "Awkward moments that wedding photographers captured when they should not have." I have MSN and Yahoo for crap like that.

I will respond to the article itself later.
I thought nearly all the ads online were targeted to people's interests and preferences? AI is slipping up!
 

unsafe

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First off ---this is about the author of this article and reading this you can well imagine why he says what he says about Salvation --

I agree with what he calls his web page -----

MESSY SPIRITUALITY

NOT THAT KIND OF PASTOR
Posted on April 16, 2019 by Jason Elam

I’m not what most people would consider a “real” pastor.
I have no desire to manage the faith or spirituality of anyone else. I trust the Holy Spirit to do that.
I have no desire to “grow a church” or oversee countless programs or committees. Real discipleship doesn’t seem to happen in a classroom.
I have no desire to “defend the faith” or fight a culture war that separates us from neighbors we are meant to love.
I believe that Jesus is the Word of God and He didn’t write a book. The book we have, while certainly unique, was gathered and accumulated over centuries as documented by human beings. God lets His (often confused) children tell the story. It’s not a rule book or manual for human existence. I believe the Bible is an invitation to know God for ourselves as we encounter Him in prayer, creation, and within our neighbors.


I say ---
kind of contradicts himself at the beginning ----says Jesus is the word but the book was documented by humans over centuries -----nothing about being God inspired

So the article ----Well I did read it and it is just a bunch of hooey in my view ------but not surprised as the source that wrote it is so ignorant in his Biblical knowledge that for me he is the perfect example of a false teacher and thinking his human intellect is all he needs along with just go and serve your neighbour and God's love will save you ------nothing new ---same old stuff -being preached by many all false doctrine ---

As far as Salvation stunting Spiritual growth ----I say a Big Fat No to that ------it can and does enhance Spiritual Growth and Wisdom and Spiritual Knowledge -----so this false teacher is definitely spreading poison doctrine and he has no feelings of remorse of sending the people who listen to this foolishness to an eternal pit of horror and he should be ashamed of himself and there are many Pastors today doing the same thing --so he is not alone -----

I say -----So he says this which shows his ignorance so well ---
This is from the article--------

He or she offers to lead them in some version of the “sinner’s prayer” in which they acknowledge their own default setting toward sinfulness, cry out to God for mercy, and ask Jesus to forgive their sins and save their soul from hell. There’s only one problem with this all too familiar scene. There is literally nothing in the Gospels that suggests that God actually wants us to do any of it.


I say
-----
While we don't have to say a sinners prayer in my view ----We are to Believe by and through the right Faith which comes by hearing the word of God and profess our faith by speaking these words to be saved ---- So we see he is ignorant of the truth here ------and that is very bad for Wending people to the wrong eternal home ------This below is scriptural and Notice the IF YOU do this you will be saved ---IF YOU don't do as it says ---you are not saved folks -our Salvation is conditional and our choice ----posting scripture here

Romans 10 ESV
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

I say --
T
hen he talks about Repentance ------he says this --his Quote here -----He was talking about opening our minds to the good news that the Kingdom of God had come near.

This Folks is not what repentance means at all ---false doctrine here ------Repentance is a mind change not just an opening of the mind ---but to change that way we think -----from the worlds way to God's way ----change it from our will to His will ------a complete transformation of the mind ----

Romans 12:2, KJV: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." ... Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

I say ---
Then he goes on to say in his article this ---- ----Didn’t Peter Tell Folks to Get Saved? ------he is using Acts 2 here ---and again he is just making up what he wants the scripture to say -----ignorant of the real message cause he is a Natural Man and can't understand the truth of the scripture

For me in his rant here --he makes no sense in what he says -----
You can read a summary of Acts Chapter 2 here if your interested and get the proper meaning of what Peter is saying ---


I say ---
His next rant is ------The Reality of Salvation ----as if he would know LOL

He says Salvation means wholeness --------well he did get that partially right --- -----Sozo Folks --it means soooooo much more ------any one who would reject having Sozo in their life ---is in my opinion -----A Fool ---here is what receiving Jesus in your heart gives you -----and believe me this is The Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth -----


Strong's #4982: sozo (pronounced sode'-
from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

sōzo
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
1a) one (from injury or peril
1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1b1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
1b) to save in the technical biblical sense

1b1) negatively
1b1a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
1b1b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance


i say ---
So then he give us the problem in his view of being born again in the spirit -----and the problem he says is that we get struck in that state and it stunts our growth -----

I am posting this section here because he is way off here in what he says this is such False Doctrine here and shows just how ignorant this man is of the Truth ---- The responsibility for keeping us saved (or whole) shifts to our own ability to follow the rules.

Once Saved Folks ----your saved for good ----except if you Blaspheme the Holy Spirit or if you were saved and have tasted the good life of Sozo and then denounce God and go back to your old ways ------and the reason is --found in Hebrews 6----AMP --

4 For [it is impossible to restore to repentance] those who have once been enlightened [spiritually] and who have [a]tasted and consciously experienced the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted and consciously experienced the good word of God and the powers of the age (world) to come, 6 [b]and then have fallen awayit is impossible to bring them back again to repentance, since they again nail the Son of God on the cross [for as far as they are concerned, they are treating the death of Christ as if they were not saved by it],


The Problem
When we put our faith in a one time spiritual experience to make us right with God, many of us will never grow beyond that point. We pray the prayer accepting Jesus and then think that it was our choice or our prayer that saved us. The responsibility for keeping us saved (or whole) shifts to our own ability to follow the rules. This keeps the focus on us and our own effort rather than on the goodness of God. Apart from a major work of deconstruction, we could be stuck in that self-centered state for the rest of our lives.


I say -----
This other statement he makes here ------False Statement again ------This keeps the focus on us and our own effort rather than on the goodness of God.

This man is just blowing my mind of how ignorant and misinformed he is and what lies he is teaching other people sending people straight to hell in a hand basket and probably laughing his head off while teaching such nonsense ------

Receiving Jesus in our hearts Folks ----helps us to lay self down and focus on helping God and His Kingdom -----God's goodness is for His children only ------if you reject Jesus the Son you reject God the Father as the 2 are 1 -----and scripture says ---posting here

ISAIAH 59:2
KJ21
But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.

So again this man is grasping at straws and has no idea what he is says ----spreading false dangerous doctrine -----


I say ---
so then he gives his Solution here ----God forbid ----

The Solution

For many, it is a huge relief to know that God is no longer holding their sins against them after their conversion experience. What could be better than being set free from your guilt and shame? How about knowing that God never held those sins against you in the first place?

I say -
-False Doctrine here Folks ----
How about knowing that God never held those sins against you in the first place?

From Genesis to Jesus Death ----sin was held against us humans ---and there were laws in place to free a person of their sins for a time only --until Jesus shed His Blood to rid sin once and for all time -----Sin is now not the issue for Judgment for Hell ----Rejecting Jesus Christ is the issue now for hell -----nonbelievers will have to give an account for their reasons for rejecting the only one who paid the price for their sins ------this takes place at the White throne Judgement

Posting here -----This is from got questions ----read all if interested ---I am just posting this bit ----

Question: "What is the Great White Throne Judgment?"

Answer:
The great white throne judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15 and is the final judgment prior to the lost being cast into the lake of fire. We know from Revelation 20:7-15 that this judgment will take place after the millennium and after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (Revelation 19:19-20; 20:7-10).

I say ----
Then he ends by ----God's Love is all you need --nothing new

God loves us with all our baggage that is a true statement ----His love was poured out to us by Him sending His Son to shed His Blood and die on the cross to bridge the wedge that sin brought in causing a separation between God and Humanity ---- In His Love for us He gave us free will to choose to receive life or death -----this is God's Agape -----but unfortunately His Love will not Save us -----God will love us no matter our choice -----if our choice is to reject His Son who paid the price for our sins --God's love for us is still in place and He will love us as we send ourselves to torment ----as God did his part for us all -----it is our choice to Love and accept God's Son --or Reject Him -------but if we reject the Son we reject the Father ------the 2 are 1

So I say ---about this man and what he is putting out there is dangerous False Doctrine and my hope is many reject what he writes -----to me he is the Anti Christ -----
 

Redbaron

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It's interesting that in Romans ch. 8, Paul writes that neither life nor death, nor anything else on all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But somehow Sin can stop God cold. Does this really make sense to you?

I realize that many of us, , who have been raised in the Christian faith, myself included, have been brought up hearing about the sin-repent-forgiven-saved connection in Christianity that you describe so fully. Yet what happens after that? All too often, precious little. Oh, we gather in worship, belt out our hymns, maybe some of us wave arms and hands, We may join in with something called 'worship music' at high volume and high energy.We make ourselves feel good, and convince ourselves that we are Right and we are Safe and we are Blessed. But are we?

The point of following Jesus is not to be 'saved' from some terrible fate in the sweet by and by, but rather to be transformed by the Spirit of Christ, day by day, bit by bit, more into Christ's likeness; in the here and now, as well as the unforeseen future. The word of God that John cites is Jesus the Christ, not the Hebrew Scriptures. We live in a society where "Get it in writing!" seems more important than "See it in actual life!" Alas, how much we miss when we look to a 'paper Pope' rather than to the living word. Even Jesus said (John 5) 'You search the Scripture because you think you find life in them. Yet they point toward me, and somehow you miss that point!'

To simply pray the sinners' prayer, to be assured that you are safe from eternal damnation, but to do nothing to be changed and transformed, frankly isn't enough. If you are 'saved', and never concern yourself to be transformed beyond that, then yes, absolutely, your "salvation" has stunted your spiritual growth.
 

jimkenney12

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An interesting read, a bit simplified but significant. I agree that repentance us not about getting God's forgiveness. It is about turning our lives around to create space for living in the Kindom of God.
 

unsafe

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Redbaron -----you said -----
t's interesting that in Romans ch. 8, Paul writes that neither life nor death, nor anything else on all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But somehow Sin can stop God cold. Does this really make sense to you?

I say ----to your last statement here -----it is not God that has stopped God cold ---it is us in our disobedience to follow God -----God is Holy -----we are the bad guys not God --We are unholy so it is our unholiness that Separates US From God -----God's love is still there for us even as we turn from him and disobey His will for us ---mock Him ---and disbelieve in His word and reject His Son -----God's Agape is always present even in our unholy state ----------So God's love for us never ends -
It is our Love for God that ends and because of our Unholiness -brought on by Adam and Eve --which is our Sinful Nature ----God in His Holiness cannot be in a relationship with our Sinful Nature -----So as it says in Isaiah ----God's face is turned away from us -----We did that --we turned God's face from us ---it is Not God that did the turning -----it is US -----we humans need to Stop blaming God for what we humans did and do ourselves ----that causes the broken bridge between us and God ----
-------

So what does separate mean -----the Hebrew word for this is

Strong's Concordance
badal: to be divided, separate
divide, separate, subject God
of iniquities, separating men from God בֵּין ֗֗֗ לְבֵין Isaiah 59:2.

I say ---Notice here ----men separating from God -----it is not God doing the separating it is us ------because of our iniquity ----our crooked nature ------which makes perfect sense there Redbaron ----we are unholy expecting a Holy God to to be there at our beck and call ------when we don't even believe in Him or His word -----how selfish and self centered is that -----and worse Reject His Son who out of His love for His Creation Sent Him to take what we deserve -----and repair the Broken Bridge that we humans created --not God ------and we thumb our nose at that ------
But God's Agape is still in place for us even then ------

Redbaron ---you said ----in Romans ch. 8, Paul writes that neither life nor death, nor anything else on all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I say ---So now here you take this Statement ----and give it as What ?

That God's Love can never be separated from us ------and my post above says that ------But here is the problem with your picking that scripture for this purpose ---and this shows your ignorance of understanding the meaning behind the words here -----

So lets look at this ------separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.that neither life nor death,

So we see the word ---in--- here ---which means this is speaking of an already Born Again Christ-ian ---as it says in death -----and we know that the unbeliever is separated from God at death according to scripture ------and the Believer is Not as they reside in Heaven with Jesus ------and this is the danger and ignorance that is being preached and taught that God's love will save all people ----

And if you look up the Chapter 8 -----it is all about how to live through the Spirit ------unbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them -----they have their Human sin nature Spirit -------

Romans 8 (NIV)
Life Through the Spirit

this is your scripture you quoted here ------it comes at the end of the chapter ----

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I say -----
God's love --Agape --is always present and there is nothing that will stop His Love for all His creation ---but our Sin Nature does separate ourselves from God which has nothing to do with the Agape He has for all in our separated state -------

BUT --
His Love will not save us from our being separated from Him in our end -----He will continue to Love us in our own personal choice to reject His Son who is the only one who can make our Sin nature Holy again so we can once again be adopted back into God's Holy Family ------Notice the word IN Christ ----not away from Christ --------in Galatians below -

it says this in your Scripture in Romans 8 that you quoted above ------

Romans 8:14-17 (AMP)--Life through the Spirit

14 For all who are allowing themselves to be led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading again to fear [of God’s judgment], but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons [the Spirit producing sonship] by which we [joyfully] cry, “[a]Abba! Father!”

16 The Spirit Himself testifies and confirms together with our spirit [assuring us] that we [believers] are children of God.

17 And if [we are His] children, [then we are His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His spiritual blessing and inheritance], if indeed we share in His suffering so that we may also share in His glory

Galatians 4 (AMP)
Sonship in Christ

4 But when [in God’s plan] the proper time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the [regulations of the] Law,

5 so that He might redeem and liberate those who were under the Law, that we [who believe] might be adopted as sons [as God’s children with all rights as fully grown members of a family]


I say ----
-So we all can believe what we want there Redbaron ----and we can take scripture and make it say what we want it to say to suit what we want to believe so we can continue to live in the flesh and not the Spirit and continue to use the cop out statements like ------

Well that is just your interpretation of what the scripture says ------there are many ways to interpret scripture ------etc --etc ------same old --same old stuff ----

But there is one thing we can't change and that is what the words says in God's Holy book ------we can twist it --turn it ----and make it our own but in the end it gives a powerful Spiritual message ----and that is Rejecting Jesus is Rejecting God altogether and that is bad news in our end ----and that message is from Genesis to Revelation -----there will be a White Throne Judgment for all unbelievers according to scripture ---and no one can stop that -----

God said ----I give you choice ---life or death ---we choose -----the wages of sin is death which is referring to the Second death for unbelievers ------and the man who wrote the article you quoted in the OP is relying on God's Love only and so that is OK for him ---but for the people who read his article and believe the lie he is teaching or preaching that is sinful in itself and he will answer for that in his end ---he is leading people down the torment path and smiling doing it -----

We are to rightly divide the word of God ------not wrongly divide ----like he is doing ------he is a wolf in sheep's clothing in my view
 

BetteTheRed

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unsafe, I have a problem with this translation that you use, particularly when you want this "book" to the "word of God", which is blasphemous, anyway, because the word is Jesus. I'm not sure that you understand that Jesus being the Word of God is sort of the original metaphor.

You use the AMPlified bible. This is not a translation Every single bracketed bit is a human's "exegesis"/"amplification" of the text. So your quotes are not real quotes, because they contain lots of material, all of which required a human judgment, that's added to the original text.
 

Redbaron

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As many wise persons of faith over the years ave said, it is possible to be so heavenly minded that one can be no earthly good.
Apparently it is also possible to be so wordy and cut-and-pastey, that whatever point you are trying to make gets lost.
Unsafe, in 1 or 2 sentences, can you clearly express what your'e trying to say, without the extraneous stuff? Thanks.
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ------when all else fails ---pick on the translation used ------your grasping at straws here and if you don't like the AMP translation then please by all means tell them -----I use it so I personally have no problem with it ---

Publisher: The Lockman Foundation
Version Information

For this update to the Amplified Bible (AMP), the goal of the translation team was to enhance the appeal of the Amplified Bible by refreshing the English and refining the amplifications for relevance and clarity. The result is an Amplified Bible that is easier to read and better than ever to study and understand.

The Amplified Bible of 2015 includes more amplification in the Old Testament and refined amplification in the New Testament. Additionally, the Bible text has been improved to read smoothly with or without amplifications, so that the text may be read either way. The same feel and style of amplification has been maintained, so that those who read the classic Amplified Bible will be able to easily transition to the new text.

The AMP was the first Bible project of The Lockman Foundation. Its goal was to take both word meaning and context into account to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The AMP does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method. The first edition was published in 1965.

The AMP is based on the American Standard Version of 1901, Rudolph Kittel’s Biblia Hebraica, the Greek text of Westcott and Hort, and the 23rd edition of the Nestle Greek New Testament as well as the best Hebrew and Greek lexicons available at the time. Cognate languages, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and other Greek works were also consulted. The Septuagint and other versions were compared for interpretation of textual differences. In completing the Amplified Bible, translators made a determined effort to keep, as far as possible, the familiar wording of the earlier versions, and especially the feeling of the ancient Book.


So BetteTheRed ------I don't think it is your place to tell me what version of the Bible i need to use in my post -----I appreciate your concern but it is your concern not mine -------
 

unsafe

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Redbaron ---you said ------ Unsafe, in 1 or 2 sentences, can you clearly express what your'e trying to say, without the extraneous stuff? Thanks.

I say -----well no I can't really as I was answering your Scripture quote that you quoted --so what your saying is it is OK for you to Quote Scripture and no explain why you use it but it is not OK for me to use scripture ans explain why I am using it -----

I personally think we don't want the truth --we just want to twist the truth and be done with it -----

The truth of scripture cuts deep and wide and we don't like that ----that is how i see your comment above ------
 

jimkenney12

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When Jewish scholars struggle with understanding many parts of the Hebrew scriptures and Paul writes long, convoluted passages with many possible interpretations, any simple claims about what a passage is supposed to mean and simplified translations represent the translators preferences, not necessarily the intent of the original writers or the will of God. The simplified translations can be comforting, challenging or easy for creating responses, and can be useful to individuals for their own needs, but it is risky to apply those translations to other people.
 

Luce NDs

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The scripture is dark ... without benefit of the light from within it ... what Red called no earthly good as the alter of Eire ... doesn't Kerie well with literalists of the stone clad variety ... Stone Bull? Like Hebrew reflect up the reverse and reciprocal ... Kat Herein?
 

Luce NDs

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When Jewish scholars struggle with understanding many parts of the Hebrew scriptures and Paul writes long, convoluted passages with many possible interpretations, any simple claims about what a passage is supposed to mean and simplified translations represent the translators preferences, not necessarily the intent of the original writers or the will of God. The simplified translations can be comforting, challenging or easy for creating responses, and can be useful to individuals for their own needs, but it is risky to apply those translations to other people.

The scene I see is it passing through the horse and falling like Paulo ... small piles that when dried can be ignited ... Hebrew transformation from Iberia! The Jude'n were expelled like cajun's rite! May lead to swamp dwellers ... Po' Ghosts in essence ... black ethers? May be encountered in liquid smoke ... elemental in roasting ... or even that demo in smokey hollow ... de Monis?
 

unsafe

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Here you go BetteTheRed ----

Bible Translation Comparison: The Top 10 Most Accurate Bible Translations
BY TIFFANY NICOLE

I say --------according to this ---the AMP Bible is #3 on their list ------

3. Amplified Bible (AMP)

The Amplified Bible (AMP) is a literal translation of the Bible and was published in 1965. It was largely a revision of the American Standard Version (ASV) of 1901. The Amplified Bible was designed to “amplify” the text by using explanatory alternate readings to assist the reader in understanding what the Scripture really says.

The AMP also uses the critical text as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 

Redbaron

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Redbaron ---you said ------ Unsafe, in 1 or 2 sentences, can you clearly express what your'e trying to say, without the extraneous stuff? Thanks.

I say -----well no I can't really as I was answering your Scripture quote that you quoted --so what your saying is it is OK for you to Quote Scripture and no explain why you use it but it is not OK for me to use scripture ans explain why I am using it -----

I personally think we don't want the truth --we just want to twist the truth and be done with it -----

The truth of scripture cuts deep and wide and we don't like that ----that is how i see your comment above ------
You will have noted that when I make reference to Scripture, I indicate a book and chapter, with a brief synopsis of what it is I refer to. I trust anyone interested in following up can pick up a handy nearby Bible, look it up, and understand.
I do not clutter the screen with reams and reams of cut-and-paste passages, culled from whatever translation or paraphrase I find best serves my purpose, replete with boldface, odd punctuation, etc etc. Nor do I have to start every 3rd paragraph with the phrase 'I say ----' because what I post is usually short enough that people can, with minimal effort, figure out what I'm saying.

Having said that, I believe I am searching for truth. Over the years I have come to believe that when one says, 'I know how to interpret the Bible, because I am SAVED!!' it is as though one were saying, 'I know everything about astronomy, because I've memorized the lyrics to TWINKLE TWINKLE LITTLE STAR!!!!' If that's how you seem to think, then, yes, the main point of the article holds true; being saved stunts your spiritual growth. It shutters your mind, your heart, your eyes and your ears; you don't WANT to hear anything that doesn't bolster what you already believe, and you certainly don't want it challenged. To me that's living in a prison cell of fear (as was my case, years ago). Minds aren't meant to be sealed up in smug belief, but to be opened up in joyful wonder.
 

Luce NDs

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Is fretting that the civil associates (social construct) might find out you don't know everything in total ... all consuming?

Is this something that will eat you and give that gnawing sensation in Canna Ba'aL?

Furthermore what's a Kahn ab AL?
 

Waterfall

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I sense a great "schism" going on here......so what is the difference between a Western outlook on Christianity and a more Orthodox Eastern Christianity, because there seems to be a lot the same but some major differences. North Americans seem to have adopted the Western and added even more through their numerous denominations. I seem to sense this in the replies from unsafe and redbaron. Especially regarding sin.
 
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