Revisiting The Vaccine

[Waterfall]

I was wondering how everyone feels about the Covid vaccine now that it's been around for approx. 2 years.
Personally I viewed it somewhat as a huge experiment counting on the benefits outweighing the risks.
Now we have a chance to look back and see results.
Do you see it as a success?
Are you getting fed up with the number of boosters? (Seems people are becoming more resistant to this according to stats)
Are we creating more resistant Covid strains to vaccines by over using vaccines?
Is the vaccine responsible for lowering deaths or is this just a natural progression of a deadly virus to "peter" itself out?
Successful or not so much IYO?

 

[paradox3]

I am willing to trust that vaccines have been effective in preventing deaths and slowing down the progress of the pandemic. I have had four doses and will schedule my fifth when I am eligible.

Yes people are fed up with all the boosters. I don't experience much in the way of side effects but I can understand the reluctance on the part of those who do.

Anyways, it is intriguing to ponder that pandemics have run their course in history without the use of vaccines.

iMO there was more guesswork when it came to other public health measures. I am not even convinced that masking makes all that much difference. And from the beginning I have been concerned about the interweaving of politics and science in setting public health policy.

 

[Luce NDs]

Should polio Vaccines be trashed? There is doubt about whether such a process as polio exists within the denier group ...

A tight weave can block most materials ... and yet moral tissue has limits ... that's the essence of some missals ... mortality demands that all things are limited ... some character by the label Mortimer!

Then Mortimer's spirit has limited populations for millennials ... millennium! Its a long time and story ...

 

[Mendalla]

Anyways, it is intriguing to ponder that pandemics have run their course in history without the use of vaccines.

You mean like the Black Death that generated multiple pandemics over a thousand or so years, sometimes wiping out a significant percentage of affected populations? Of course, it is bacterial and carried by rats so it's antibiotics and better sanitation rather than vaccines that stemmed it. But absent those measures, we might still be having regular pandemics. Yersina pestis is still found in rodent populations in many parts of the world and occasional cases pop up so the Plague has not left us, we are just doing things differently so that outbreaks are small and quickly contained.

Vaccines do the same thing for viral pandemics. The viruses don't necessarily go away, but their ability to "go pandemic" and for those pandemics to devastate large populations is stemmed.

So, I would not say that pandemics have ever "run their course" even with vaccines and other measures. They just ebb and flow. Once enough vulnerable people are dead or immune, they go away, only to come back when there's a new generation of vulnerable people. Vaccines, antibiotics, sanitary measures let us break that cycle or at least minimize the damage during the "flow" part.

I had planned to get my fourth shot after the bivalents came out but I am only just finishing my three-month post-infection waiting period (as in, I was still sick three months ago today). Probably wait a bit longer to make the shot closer to when we plan to travel in January (which will be around our six-months).

 

[Mendalla]

I am not even convinced that masking makes all that much difference.

We were fairly strict about measures like that and didn't get it until the BA.5 wave hit, so I think it all helped. How much? Hard to quantify without some proper public health studies. I think they were less effective than they might have been just because a lot of people just did the bare minimum and even that not well. Only wore surgical masks and didn't put in the effort to fit them properly and that sort of thing.

 

[Mendalla]

Are we creating more resistant Covid strains to vaccines by over using vaccines?

In fact, the new strains are mostly coming from areas with low rates of vaccination because the virus has more opportunity to adapt in those environments due to having large numbers of vulnerable targets mixing with the small number of vaccinated ones. 100% (or close to it) vaccination rates would actually prevent adaptation to some degree.

 

[Luce NDs]

The little things that turn into monsters ... I've been told chimera are non existent because the great powers cannot visualize them ... it is said (Woodward) the past POTUS missed his chance to find place as a virtue ... all leader ...

 

[ChemGal]

I think the vaccines have been really successful. Alberta used to put out some really good data that I have followed. Yes, changing variants were a bit of a factor, but still there's the unvaccinated population as well to look at the trends. The COVID numbers in 2020 were actually much smaller than near the end of 2021 and throughout 2022, yet deaths and hospitalizations did not show a proportional rise.

I think a problem with vaccines is that way too many people expected vaccine would mean not contracting COVID. I had people who were all in supporting COVID guidelines who questioned me in 2021 when they saw I was masking - wasn't I vaccinated? I think that contributed to the public in general wanting masking dropped. I think had the messaging been better, there would have been more support to keep masking in place all along. I also think it's difficult to get that messaging out though, people tend to like hearing all or nothing. Public health officials didn't want to discourage anyone from being vaccinated.

I feel a little annoyed with some people and the boosters who complain about it. I am more at the extreme end of a reaction. I think many of the people who are resistant or complain the most do not actually feel poorly with the boosters. A little unwell? Sure. Not something where it takes them a few weeks to get back on track to their usual level.

Are over using vaccines a problem in terms of COVID strains? I would say no. That happens with natural immunity too, and I would rather a situation where we need a new vaccine every year or even 6 months than have no vaccine (or just the original 2/3 doses and no boosters) and that many more people getting extremely sick or dying.

Yes, the vaccines are lowering deaths - easy enough to see with looking at vaccinated population vs. unvaccinated population. And that's not even factoring in that people who already have risk factors tend to be more likely to get vaccinated in the first place. Go to the rates of someone who has no known underlying health condition and a specific age group and the results of vaccinated vs. not stands out more.

 

[ChemGal]

I am not even convinced that masking makes all that much difference.

Early I figured it may help a bit, but was wondering how much does it really help. Many people were posting things about proof or evidence it worked which really wasn't using any virus infection at all. I found it rough to watch as it was like there were 2 sides - do nothing vs. mask and I wasn't on the do nothing side but the 'proof' wasn't proof.

Real life situations though, including large population data from places with masking policies vs. not/when dropped - I was really surprised to see how much of a difference masking made. And that includes people who were far from doing it well. Not just COVID, yes flu wasn't just about masking but still, I was shocked that seasonal flu had no detectable cases in 2020 here.

I don't understand why people are so eager to drop it - except it does go to some all or nothing I suspect. At work all day for the same people? Masking can be uncomfortable, gets tiring projecting your voice to be heard, etc. Throwing one on to go grocery shopping? Low on effort I would say, yet 50% of the population won't even wear them when not required to at a medical clinic.

 

[ChemGal]

We were fairly strict about measures like that and didn't get it until the BA.5 wave hit, so I think it all helped. How much? Hard to quantify without some proper public health studies. I think they were less effective than they might have been just because a lot of people just did the bare minimum and even that not well. Only wore surgical masks and didn't put in the effort to fit them properly and that sort of thing.

Chemguy has been around COVID+ people enough and not had it where I feel like yeah, it definitely prevented it at least once for him.

 

[Mendalla]

I feel a little annoyed with some people and the boosters who complain about it. I am more at the extreme end of a reaction. I think many of the people who are resistant or complain the most do not actually feel poorly with the boosters. A little unwell? Sure. Not something where it takes them a few weeks to get back on track to their usual level.

I get sore arms every time but really no other symptoms. Same as with flu shots (oddly, my arm hasn't bothered me much since getting the flu shot on Sunday compared to the past). Shingrix was worse.

I would rather a situation where we need a new vaccine every year or even 6 months than have no vaccine (or just the original 2/3 doses and no boosters)

If we could get to the point of being annual, that would be best. Similar to flu. That said, uptake for the flu shot hasn't always been great in some years either.

 

[jimkenney12]

The failure of provincial health authorities to issue at least monthly statics on Covid infections bothers me. The fear of harassment by misinformed hotheads seems to have revealed our governments as cowardly.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The failure of provincial health authorities to issue at least monthly statics on Covid infections bothers me. The fear of harassment by misinformed hotheads seems to have revealed our governments as cowardly.

Maybe the fear that there are some undeniably untenable, frightening, positions the far right holds, and if public officials admit to any mistakes, more people will switch sides entirely - which would be scary. Just crossed my mind. If they were wrong on anything I’d rather they informed the public - but at this point if that were the case, no “side “would be able to trust them.

 

[ChemGal]

The thing that I find most frustrating is all the mixed messaging. I can't actually book through AHS without calling. Their pharmacy map is currently crap - it specifies between Moderna and Pfizer, but not monovalent and bivalent. It also claims most of the nearby pharmacies are not doing flu vaccines which I know is wrong. Got the advice I should talk to my doctor, didn't see my doctor, did see a GP in the clinic. She was unaware it was possible to get it at 3 months, ditto for nursing line. COVID line knows but won't talk about an individual situations. The doctor in general seemed to have no information about COVID risks - she said clearly you have looked into this more than I have.

Chemguy got his flu shot, confirmed with pharmacist they have bivalent Pfizer (I would have called myself otherwise).

Patients should not be more up to date on this stuff than the healthcare system is. Especially this far into it.

 

[Carolla]

I agree clarity in messaging is important. I think that's gotten a bit lost over the summer months here in Ontario. Professional & public 'burn out' may be a factor.

I don't think that "mistakes" have been made re public health measures but that science has evolved as we gained knowledge of the virus, which then resulted in changing recommendations. I think in general we/public health officials etc have done the best they could based on available knowledge, shfiting as knowledge emerged. Some viewed that as 'mistakes' but I do not. For that reason, I was not an early mask/gloves wearer, tending toward heeding keep a distance & maintain hand hygiene routines. But over time, that of course shifted. Never did get on the 'gloves', wash all your groceries bandwagon tho as some did. But if doing so made others feel more comfortable, well all grace to them.

I'm hopeful we will eventually get to administering an annual or semi annual covid shot much as we do the flu shot. No huge lines etc, but just a reminder & go get it done. I don't see covid vaccinations being eliminated in the near future.

 

[Waterfall]

I agree clarity in messaging is important. I think that's gotten a bit lost over the summer months here in Ontario. Professional & public 'burn out' may be a factor.

I don't think that "mistakes" have been made re public health measures but that science has evolved as we gained knowledge of the virus, which then resulted in changing recommendations. I think in general we/public health officials etc have done the best they could based on available knowledge, shfiting as knowledge emerged. Some viewed that as 'mistakes' but I do not. For that reason, I was not an early mask/gloves wearer, tending toward heeding keep a distance & maintain hand hygiene routines. But over time, that of course shifted. Never did get on the 'gloves', wash all your groceries bandwagon tho as some did. But if doing so made others feel more comfortable, well all grace to them.

I'm hopeful we will eventually get to administering an annual or semi annual covid shot much as we do the flu shot. No huge lines etc, but just a reminder & go get it done. I don't see covid vaccinations being eliminated in the near future.

Gee I had forgotten about washing the groceries thing. Seems weird now.

 

[KayTheCurler]

We didn't wash all our groceries at any point. Didn't wear gloves either. We mask/ed where required. Now that is mainly medical locations.
Like many others we had difficulty gathering up to date correct info. Currently waiting to be eligible for a fifth shot. Around here Moderna seems to be what is offered.
Neither of us have had a confirmed case, but fully vaccinated friends are dealing with their second time around. One has no symptoms at all - which means he could easily have been out in the community spreading it around. He only tested himself because his partner was sick. Everyone else in the family have had it (some vaccinated, others not), but fortunately no one became really ill.

 

[paradox3]

I know of a household where three people were infected. One person had minimal symptoms; one had no symptoms at all; the other one was fairly sick.

 

[Mendalla]

Around here Moderna seems to be what is offered.

It seems to be a mix around here. My pharmacy (in a No Frills) was definitely telling people on Sunday they had the Pfizer BA.4/5 bivalent, but I was in the Walmart near work yesterday and they are offering just the Moderna bivalent.

 

[Delightful Life]

I was wondering how everyone feels about the Covid vaccine now that it's been around for approx. 2 years.

Wow. If this were a long running tv series, this would be the retrospective episode. Ty, Waterfall

Personally I viewed it somewhat as a huge experiment counting on the benefits outweighing the risks.

I am of similar mind
Risks and costs?
With not everyone having either the same risk profile or character. With different people, orgs, health authorities, govts, countries doing things samely and differently
Cf. China recent 100% lockdowns vs. Australia fooling around with quarantine camps to even NYC police checking passerby's "papers"...

We saw with all this who and how people react? What does it take for this person to rise in authority etc etc etc

Now we have a chance to look back and see results.

Yep.

Do you see it as a success?

Too soon to tell?

But yeah, that Administration with Operation Warp Speed, helped a LOT of people.

I have been witness to some amazing acts of humanity (cf. Docs and other health people breaking the law in early 2020 to figure out how to help their patients with this strange disease...or people naturally before US gov't told of lockdowns masking etc voluntarily...or seeing the many #MutualAidNetworks formed by ordinary folx...)
Some horrific (eg. Chinese government total lockdown followed by using vaxxine passport to block retrieving money from banks...the creation of a new 2nd class...people not allowed to see their dying loved ones in the hospital...)

2020 was like a quiet zombie apocalpse of waiting. Lots of silence. Even the local freeway was quiet which was bizarre

Now its like endless apocalypses one after another lol


It is also cool. I am living in a technothriller novel.

Here we have this bizarre disease (is it respiratory disease? Is it a vascular disease? Why does it seem to affect so many different systems in the body?). We have a global glut of information (too much info--rememebr that scen when Ozymandias reveals the secret weapon when the Watchmen break into his secret lair?). We have conflicting narratives. We have different authorities saying different things enough. We have actual govt suppression of stories (like the Lab Leak hypothesis...once verboten, now serious). And we have actual Vaxxines (yay J&J) and brand new Gene Therapy drug (yay Moderna!!!) And more on its way (Canada's plant based medicine)
We have various grass roots movements ocurring everywhere all across the spectrum for various reasons. And otherwise. Enough to make one's Conspiracy Map red with all the connexions :3

We even have Dutch farmers "fertilizing" their parliament because of cut backs to their use of fertilizer

We have two powerhouse govts at war with each other (Russia and USA) for various reasons. We have sanctions against Russia that aren't working but are working negatively againt Europe and the world.
We have the USA gov't blowing up a pipeline

And we have other countries govts joining in (China & Iran?)

We have various indiviuals and groups promising "A Solve" from the World Economic Forum
Musk and Bezos (solve: save myself and f*** you all)

the UN (here is this tooo long list of things we have to do very soon) to the NATO (as it scrambles to keep from crumbling) to USA (which scrambles to keep from becoming more irrelevant) to China (WE ARE VERY PATIENT. LEAVE US ALONE). Feel free to ad more.

We have the effects of lockdowns. We have the effects of masking on young children.

And we have weapons grade govt manipulation going on globally and various countries wanting to control their populations

(It all goes into the pot of Risks and Costs)

So who is writing this novel?


"Arch! I say.

Are you getting fed up with the number of boosters? (Seems people are becoming more resistant to this according to stats)

Its all a sameness now.
I am looking forward to the new ones. I am hoping for Rocket Richard flavoured

Are we creating more resistant Covid strains to vaccines by over using vaccines?

Natural selection pressures as far as I know can happen from various means?Put an organism under stress, and poof.

I think the natural selection pressures from both the vaxxine and the gene therapy isn't as big an effect as without this tech. I understand the messaging, but safe enough vaccine is more correct than safe :3 No wonder they had to hire world class PR to form the messaging?

Is the vaccine responsible for lowering deaths or is this just a natural progression of a deadly virus to "peter" itself out?
Successful or not so much IYO?

Well look at rabies. How long has it been in our population and how deadly is it still?

Also we dont know yet aboot long term effects? That is going to take by definition time.

Humanity will continue to meddle. It is part of what we do :3

We are all co-creators.

And always involved in a dance between total enslavement of humanity and emancipation of humanity.

No pressure.

As you were, citizens.

Whew
That was exhausting