Mary. Mother of Jesus. Badass!

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Luce NDs

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I'm here to engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue Luce. Should others wish to engage in same with me, I'm pleased to do so. I won't engage with those who see fit to talk down to me. It's just not worth my time.
Jae ... really come to realize god's world is much larger than what you learn from a singular book ... it even teaches of such errs!

Some abstract required ... sometimes taken as a stretch or imagination ... dreams in a darker state? Moors to learn! Don;t be so confined that the point of the pin would be lost in the chaos ... :giggle: tis the essence of motherin yah!
 

chansen

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I'm here to engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue Luce.
Bwahahahahahaaaaaa!


Should others wish to engage in same with me, I'm pleased to do so. I won't engage with those who see fit to talk down to me. It's just not worth my time.
The Troll of the North wants to not be talked down to. Amazing.

Jae, you're here to regurgitate what your current mentor is filling your head with, and to get negative reactions. You seem to be doing fine with both. Why not just be happy that you're getting what you want?
 

Luce NDs

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It once was said the world needs more levite ... and then the pious executed the main Levite ... isn't that cosmological humus?

Knows-ite!
 

Northwind

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I'm here to engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue Luce. Should others wish to engage in same with me, I'm pleased to do so. I won't engage with those who see fit to talk down to me. It's just not worth my time.
And yet it is okay for you to talk down to people. :unsure: I see. Okay then.
 

blackbelt1961

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I'm here to engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue Luce. Should others wish to engage in same with me, I'm pleased to do so. I won't engage with those who see fit to talk down to me. It's just not worth my time.
Amen
 
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revjohn

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DaisyJane said:
What are your thoughts?
I saw the article also.

I think there are some arguments that are purely conjecture. The notion that Mary was a badass I think strains credibility. I suppose it all boils down to how we are defining badass. I don't see anything to suggest Mary is unique, save in God's choosing. To advance that God's choice was based on some kind of merit rather than the graciousness of God requires one to demonstrate that merit over and above others. Which cannot be done via the gospel texts.

I do agree that there is some historical conjecture that needs to be addressed because it distorts the picture the narrative attempts to paint.

Arguments from silence, where the text actually does not indicate this or that thing make arriving at the decision for this or that thing difficult.

So, Mary's virginity is not recorded to suggest that Mary is young. It exists to point out that the fatherhood of Jesus will be uncontested.

The Gospel of Luke records three angelic announcements of birth within the first two chapters.

First, an Angel is sent to Zechariah to announce he is soon to father the herald (John the Baptist) with his wife Elizabeth. Zechariah is fearful when he sees the angel "Do not be afraid" is the greeting. The angel recounts what is to happen, John is doubtful and struck dumb until John is born and named.

Gabriel is then sent to Mary. This is special because we are given the angel's name. This angel has rank and elevated above the nameless host (they likely all have names they are simply not recorded in scripture). Mary is engaged to Joseph, there is no textual evidence suggesting that Gabriel kneeled before Mary. Depending upon the translation one uses the Angel addresses, Mary, differently. "Hail Mary full of grace" is not one of those translations. That comes from the Catholic prayer "Ave Maria"

Most translations call Mary "favoured one." The intent is subtly different. Mary either is the origin of grace or the recipient thereof. The "Ave Maria" and intercessory prayer suggests that Mary has some power, therefore, originates grace. Protestantism rejects that.

The angel also says "Do not be afraid" which suggests that among her confusion there was also some fear. Not very badass.

No punishment for her doubt unless you think that she had the smoothest and most trouble-free pregnancy and labour the world has ever seen.

The third announcement is the night where an unnamed angel addresses the shepherds and they are also told not to be afraid.

Ultimately the Gospels are not about Mary. She, like Joseph, is more prop than the protagonist. The Gospel is about Jesus.

Now we know that Joseph isn't around for the whole Gospel and Mary makes a few more appearances. I think it would be interesting to explore the dynamics of that relationship for more clues about what Mary might have been like.

It is also interesting to note that in the three encounters with Angels recorded by Luke only the Shepherds can be depicted as unquestioningly obedient. Mary and Zechariah are somewhat doubtful and point to legitimate obstacles. Kind of like Thomas later on when challenged with a resurrection claim.

The Magnificat is a political manifesto not entirely different from the manifesto's found in the prophets regarding the Messianic Kingdom. I suspect that reads differently to we who are not as versed or steeped in that imagery as it was to Mary in her time. We in the West trending to secularism and not having to contend with the realities of military occupation. This probably only surprises folk who are unfamiliar with women being recognized as Prophets or who discount a Prophetess as the wife of a Prophet with no prophetic ability of their own. As if giving a noun a feminine ending switches that noun from nominative to genitive declension. We see that attempt tried with Deacons and Deaconesses among complementarians.

On the whole a fair article though I find the exaggeration of claims rather distracting. I suspect that is a Reformational Bias that cringes from the veneration of Mary. That said, she is the Theotokos and deserves a modicum of respect for that.
 

revjohn

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revjohn said:
The Magnificat is a political manifesto not entirely different from the manifesto's found in the prophets regarding the Messianic Kingdom. I suspect that reads differently to we who are not as versed or steeped in that imagery as it was to Mary in her time. We in the West trending to secularism and not having to contend with the realities of military occupation. This probably only surprises folk who are unfamiliar with women being recognized as Prophets or who discount a Prophetess as the wife of a Prophet with no prophetic ability of their own. As if giving a noun a feminine ending switches that noun from nominative to genitive declension. We see that attempt tried with Deacons and Deaconesses among complementarians.
Compare and contrast the Magnificat of Luke 1: 46-55 with Miriam's (note the resemblance of name in Greek we read Μαριάμ which transliterated is Mariam) song in Exodus 15: 1-18, 21.
 

GeoFee

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Ultimately the Gospels are not about Mary.
As bread is not about yeast? Jesus does not present himself as men who sit at table and are served. He presents himself as one who serves those who sit at table. As did his mother, auntie, and women of the day in general.
 

Luce NDs

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Waters above and waters below ... deeps seiz whir in ... and don't understand the metaphor developed to confuse intellect! Thus Su-La Weize and cave painting of early activities ... poorly described images ... cloudy?

Lear deeply into law maker's eyes ... same fog!
 

revjohn

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GeoFee said:
As bread is not about yeast?
One can have bread without yeast.

GeoFee said:
Jesus does not present himself as men who sit at table and are served.
True. I'm not sure of the relevance given my comment that you have quoted

GeoFee said:
He presents himself as one who serves those who sit at table. As did his mother, auntie, and women of the day in general.
Without question. Still not seeing the relevance given my comment that you have quoted.
 

GeoFee

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Simply questioning your suggestion that “ultimately the Gospels are not about Mary.” I will suggest that the spirit of God present in Mary is reflected in the words and actions of Jesus. This based on my understanding that the character of the mother has formative influence on a developing child while in the womb and in the early years of infancy. I use the image of yeast in (some) bread to indicate that lack of obvious presence does not equate with lack of effectual presence.
 

revjohn

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GeoFee said:
I will suggest that the spirit of God present in Mary is reflected in the words and actions of Jesus.
Or Jesus as God the Son is not easily distinguished from the Spirit of God Mary reflects. In a theological chicken and egg discussion Jesus is always shining/projecting never reflecting.

GeoFee said:
This based on my understanding that the character of the mother has formative influence on a developing child while in the womb and in the early years of infancy.
Without a doubt, Children are influenced by their mothers and the family into which they are born. Whether that influence is pervasive and inescapable seems to vary from person to person. With respect to Jesus, I would think that the whole is greater than the sum of all parts.

GeoFee said:
I use the image of yeast in (some) bread to indicate that lack of obvious presence does not equate with lack of effectual presence.
True. One can still discuss bread without referencing yeast. The Gospels are not a recipe book discussing how to assemble a Christ nor are they a shopping list of everything one would need to compile one. They start with Jesus the Christ as reality and testify to that reality. If they were about Mary I would expect to see her in the centre of the narrative more frequently. For that matter the Gospels aren't about Peter or any of the other disciples either.
 

GeoFee

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I would think that the whole is greater than the sum of all parts
This offers opportunity for agreement. The gospel is a narrative opening to the personal experience of God. That gospel is presented as the dynamic relationship of diverse characters in the sight of God. This moves us on to apostolic ground, where Paul presents Christ as the head of the faithful body. That body comprised of many members, each with a part to play in service to the whole.
 

GeoFee

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Specific to the article, I do not consider Mary as “badass”. My view has Mary as an open minded and compassionate person, as was her first born son.
 

Luce NDs

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Marah is specifically spatial so as to absorb gross information ... a vast pool?

Avastipol ...

Could be a deadhead in the tacking ...
 

GeoFee

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We have the image of God, in Genesis, presented as male and female. Yet the whole of Western discourse concerning God, up until the rise of feminine consciousness in the public square, speaks of divine matters only in masculine terms. In the Gospel this changes. God begins a new work in the earth by the agency of two women. One is Elizabeth the wife of Zechariah and the other is Mary, whose parents are uncertain to me.

For me, Elizabeth represents the faithful remnant of Israel languishing under religious and political jurisdiction of the day. Her son pronounces prophetic words calling for repentance. Repentance meaning reconsideration of priority and commitment. This prepares the way for the appearing of Mary's child, Jesus. Jesus being the cornerstone of a new social imagination rooted in the pursuit of mercy, justice and humility.

The excluded poor welcome Jesus as the herald of an approaching new world order. A world order where all gather and all have access to what is gathered; none having too much and none having too little. We see this in the apostolic community where none claimed private possession of any thing. We also notice the murderous refusal of religious and political powers; which Jesus spoke of as a likely consequence following faithful public witness. Which is verified by the evidence of history.

For me the rise of God's feminine spirit is long overdue. Under the divisive jurisdiction of masculine superiority dominating feminine experience our earth and its peoples have been brought to the brink of disaster. This, as the story is generally interpreted, has its roots in Eve who led Adam into sin generating the doctrine of woman as blame bearer. This doctrine eclipsed by the apostolic assertion that Christ is in us one and all, and that Christ is neither male nor female. Christ is a spirit. I welcome that spirit whatever form it may take.
 

GeoFee

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In the OT book of Judges we meet a remarkable woman named Deborah. She is gifted with wisdom and courage adequate to lead God’s people in the resistance and overthrow of a persistent adversary. We do well to ask why she is subordinated to her husband Barak in the NT book of Hebrews.
 

blackbelt1961

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Most translations call Mary "favoured one." The intent is subtly different. Mary either is the origin of grace or the recipient thereof. The "Ave Maria" and intercessory prayer suggests that Mary has some power, therefore, originates grace. Protestantism rejects that.
Growing up a nonpracticing Catholic, Mary is so elevated that she is said to be an intercessor between her and her Son, they even have feasts for her, her and some other saints like St Rocco.

a friend who is evangelical once said, Catholics elevate he so High whereas protestants don't view her at all, thank God for grace because we are all wrong.


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