Life After Death....

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Northwind

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I listened to that program yesterday. It was very interesting. I was surprised by the 50% and 75% numbers. While the woman was unable to fully believe the reason for the experiences she heard, she also could not dismiss them.

When my mother died, my nephews were about 3 and 5. They stayed at a neighbour's when we were at the hospital. When we got back, the neighbour asked what time my mother had died. At the time she died, the five year old had a weird interruption to his sleep that the neighbour didn't think was a dream or similar "typical" experience. We all decided she had stopped by to say goodbye to them. As she was dying, she spoke some what to us sounded like jibberish. The minister came by shortly afterwards and asked who in our family had died last. It was my grandmother, my mother's mother. The minister grew up in the Caribbean (I think) and told us his culture believed that the last person who died came to greet the dying. That seemed plausible. It was nice to think that was a possibility.

I did a two day, 60km walk in 2011. The last one or two kilometres were wicked and I really had to push myself. It felt like my mother was there supporting me. Even if it was some kind of hallucination, the presence was comforting.
 
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It also didn't help my mental state, which was still vulnerable because I was traumatized by something I didn't know could happen suddenly - in the following days - to go to a Baptist church with a fundamentalist bent - which was weird, there was something dark about it, the place gave me a bad chill in a couple of instances - even though the people meant well - I didn't know the denominations were so different. There, I was told the devil was after my soul and life was going to be like an Indiana Jones adventure. She was a trained (but not ordained) pastor trying to help, yet she knew I was vulnerable. She led a bible study that street folks had to stay for if they wanted a meal. She invited me to that. I decided that was not going to be a good place to work out my faith or for my mental health. There was something predatory about it. I had, thank God, the wherewithal to go to a United Church the following Sunday - and I continued to see a doctor and a counsellor. I like to think Jesus saved me from becoming a fundamentalist. I was always a universalist, and a believer in social justice (on earth as it is in heaven)and that experience affirmed it, but made me a Christian universalist - instead of going down the road Calvin himself went.

Do I still believe otherworldly messages were involved in my experience? Yes. In a sense, yes - through my own subconscious. But nothing I can prove in a perfectly logical pragmatic way - so I don't spend time trying to convince anyone.
 
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Mendalla

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Thing is, once you accept the existence of a life after death, don't thing like the Devil, angels, demons, etc. become more plausible, too? Or could there be an afterlife that is divorced from other supernatural/spiritual beliefs?
 

Waterfall

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Thing is, once you accept the existence of a life after death, don't thing like the Devil, angels, demons, etc. become more plausible, too? Or could there be an afterlife that is divorced from other supernatural/spiritual beliefs?
That's an interesting question seeing as that "lore", for lack of a better word, has been around forever. So should we be acknowledging other experiences as "real" or valid too because of frequencies and how long it's been recorded as this researcher suggests for the nice experiences? Hmmm.......
 

Waterfall

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I listened to that program yesterday. It was very interesting. I was surprised by the 50% and 75% numbers. While the woman was unable to fully believe the reason for the experiences she heard, she also could not dismiss them.

When my mother died, my nephews were about 3 and 5. They stayed at a neighbour's when we were at the hospital. When we got back, the neighbour asked what time my mother had died. At the time she died, the five year old had a weird interruption to his sleep that the neighbour didn't think was a dream or similar "typical" experience. We all decided she had stopped by to say goodbye to them. As she was dying, she spoke some what to us sounded like jibberish. The minister came by shortly afterwards and asked who in our family had died last. It was my grandmother, my mother's mother. The minister grew up in the Caribbean (I think) and told us his culture believed that the last person who died came to greet the dying. That seemed plausible. It was nice to think that was a possibility.

I did a two day, 60km walk in 2011. The last one or two kilometres were wicked and I really had to push myself. It felt like my mother was there supporting me. Even if it was some kind of hallucination, the presence was comforting.
Some say children are more open when it comes to these things and as we get older we either choose to be more open about it or tune it out altogether. Sort of like faith.
 

Mendalla

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That's an interesting question seeing as that "lore", for lack of a better word, has been around forever. So should we be acknowledging other experiences as "real" or valid too because of frequencies and how long it's been recorded as this researcher suggests for the nice experiences? Hmmm.......
Not saying "real" but "plausible". Obviously, those phenomena would have to be investigated in their own right. Thing is, afterlife has almost always been connected to the idea of a "spirit world", save maybe with the Pharisees and early Christians who actually believed in physical resurrection. Even in cultures with reincarnation as their basic afterlife belief, there is an idea of a part of us that moves from body to body. So if we are talking about something surviving past death, then that broader "spirit world" becomes an inevitable part of the conversation to my mind.
 

Waterfall

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Not saying "real" but "plausible". Obviously, those phenomena would have to be investigated in their own right. Thing is, afterlife has almost always been connected to the idea of a "spirit world", save maybe with the Pharisees and early Christians who actually believed in physical resurrection. Even in cultures with reincarnation as their basic afterlife belief, there is an idea of a part of us that moves from body to body. So if we are talking about something surviving past death, then that broader "spirit world" becomes an inevitable part of the conversation to my mind.
It's always intrigued me about Christianity's physical resurrection but a different "body". That easily fits in with reincarnation on earth again or just another type of body to suit another world.
But if someone is returned to earth or another world, where are they now and why if someone sees them do they look the same or just felt? Is it limbo land, paradise, purgatory, etc......that they're still occupying?
 
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That's awful and very dangerous. I'm glad you had the wherewithal to get out of there. That woman could do a lot of damage. :(
As an aside - I think there's a sizeable but not necessarily acknowledged portion of the street population who may not have such severe mental health issues if they were not sleep deprived. And some churches, particularly fundamentalists in urban areas, do take advantage of them. If the devil lurks anywhere, he lurks there.
 

Northwind

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As an aside - I think there's a sizeable but not necessarily acknowledged portion of the street population who may not have such severe mental health issues if they were not sleep deprived. And some churches, particularly fundamentalists in urban areas, do take advantage of them. If the devil lurks anywhere, he lurks there.
I'm inclined to agree. I've also pondered mental illness and who gets to decide who is mentally ill. I'm saying that knowing there is physical evidence to suggest a reason for the "mental" illness. I'm influenced by the book The Myth of Mental Illness by Dr Szasz. I'm also influenced by some research I did in university. It seems many behaviours are seen as mental illness when they don't fit society's norms and values. I'm thinking of a man I met in Toronto when I worked there. I believe he may have had a diagnosis of schizophrenia or something similar. He told me his prophecies and visions. I remember thinking "what if there are prophets among us"? I sometimes wonder what ever happened to him.
 

Northwind

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I was interested in what Patricia Pearson said about Jesus' resurrection. She noted that people were more open to the idea of a resurrection in his day so his resurrection must have had something extra special or significant about it. I'll have to think on that.
 
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I'm inclined to agree. I've also pondered mental illness and who gets to decide who is mentally ill. I'm saying that knowing there is physical evidence to suggest a reason for the "mental" illness. I'm influenced by the book The Myth of Mental Illness by Dr Szasz. I'm also influenced by some research I did in university. It seems many behaviours are seen as mental illness when they don't fit society's norms and values. I'm thinking of a man I met in Toronto when I worked there. I believe he may have had a diagnosis of schizophrenia or something similar. He told me his prophecies and visions. I remember thinking "what if there are prophets among us"? I sometimes wonder what ever happened to him.
I had a neuropsychiatrist decide that I was sleep deprived which was not helped by my imagination and propensity for anxiety. If you look at what some people have had to deal with, why wouldn't they be anxious or depressed? But I got no diagnosis other than that. He and I had interesting talks about metaphysical possibilities. He didn't think I was crazy. He was surprised to learn of my experience in a baptist church because he was raising his own kids in a baptist church. He was agnostic about it. He wanted them to have a moral foundation and structure. Who knows? Maybe I helped him, too, as he helped me.
 

Waterfall

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I was interested in what Patricia Pearson said about Jesus' resurrection. She noted that people were more open to the idea of a resurrection in his day so his resurrection must have had something extra special or significant about it. I'll have to think on that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that after you do.
 

Northwind

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I'd love to hear your thoughts on that after you do.
I have heard that theory before I think. It seems that Jesus' resurrection must have been a profound experience for those who witnessed it or were nearby. It's hard to think what that would be since we don't usually have a vocabulary to describe the experience. If it even gets into the verbal centres in the brain.
 
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I was interested in what Patricia Pearson said about Jesus' resurrection. She noted that people were more open to the idea of a resurrection in his day so his resurrection must have had something extra special or significant about it. I'll have to think on that.
Maybe people had no other frame of reference. They didn't have science. They didn't know things like mental illness and epilepsy, or sleep deprivation - had any neurological basis or effect. They certainly hadn't heard of quantum physics. But they did hear of resurrection myths that preceded Jesus - stories that were influenced and carried by culture and migration.
 
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Waterfall

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I have heard that theory before I think. It seems that Jesus' resurrection must have been a profound experience for those who witnessed it or were nearby. It's hard to think what that would be since we don't usually have a vocabulary to describe the experience. If it even gets into the verbal centres in the brain.
Not only that, I wonder if it was something so new that it would have been so extraordinarily profound to even attempt to express it in writing on paper let alone verbally as you say. So far down the generations we are only left with a more sterile description especially since those who actually wrote the Gospels were likely not the eyewitnesses.
 

Waterfall

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Maybe people had no other frame of reference. They didn't have science. They didn't know things like mental illness and epilepsy, or sleep deprivation - had any neurological basis or effect. But they did hear of resurrection myths that preceded Jesus.
Maybe.
In the Podcast Patricia addresses this by saying she believes we underestimate the abilities of the ancients.
 

Northwind

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Perhaps there was no previous frame reference anyway. Perhaps it was something so extraordinary that had never happened before.

So far down the generations we are only left with a more sterile description especially since those who actually wrote the Gospels were likely not the eyewitnesses.
This is interesting. Often stories get embellished as time goes on. I wonder why this might have become more sterile.
 

Waterfall

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During the Podcast it was brought up about "The Third Man". Quite frankly I had never heard of this before, but after hearing about it, it does seem similar to having a guardian angel.

Here is more information about "the third man". So many explorers, pilots, soldiers, etc.....have related stories about this mysterious phenomenon, that they actually came up with tests to find out the scientific reasoning behind it all:

 
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