Let's talk about sin

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,256
Reaction score
1,025
[U]Pavlos Maros[/U] your quote -----I do good because it's good, not for any reward

That is a False Statement ---you do good because you get a personal gratification from doing the good or you wouldn't be bothered to do the thing ----and it works both ways we do the bad we do cause we get some personal gratification in doing it at the time we do it ----so your actually getting your reward by gratifying self desire ----

The True Christian does the good because their Faith unifies them to the Love Of Jesus and this Love who is God moves our Faith into action to do Good -----Our Works of Good---- Works for God not us ------
 

Ritafee

ONANOFFANONAGIN
Messages
6,219
Reaction score
1,640
But when it comes down to the nitty gritty you all believe in an imagined being which in and by itself is dangerous.
Speaking for myself, the question of whether I believe 'God' exists or not is futile.

If you know a thing then you don’t need to believe it.

If you believe a thing it is because you are not sure that you know it.
 

Ritafee

ONANOFFANONAGIN
Messages
6,219
Reaction score
1,640
you all believe in an imagined being
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand,
while imagination embraces the entire world,
and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein
 

PilgrimsProgress

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,220
Reaction score
1,372
The forums have a section for social and political discussions called the Think Tank (mostly to keep them out of the other forums, I suspect). I rarely go in because it is mostly political BS that generates more heat than light but there is the odd philosophical or religious discussion that catches my interest.
Gotta say, Mendalla, this brings to mind Bill Clinton saying he tried marijuana but didn't enhale it......... :sneaky:
 

chansen

Pleasant Enough
Messages
10,469
Reaction score
7,085
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand,
while imagination embraces the entire world,
and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein
You're conflating imagination with imaginary beings. Imagination is about creativity and the ability to look at things a different way. Imagination leads to art as much as it does to science. It is a very human trait.

If we lost all accumulated scientific knowledge tomorrow, human imagination would be the spark to find it all again. We can recover without the knowledge. We could not recover or advance without imagination.

You want to include imaginary beings in this. That's clearly not what Albert was going for. He wasn't referring to wishing a being into existence because you really want him to exist.
 

chansen

Pleasant Enough
Messages
10,469
Reaction score
7,085
That said, I do have some ideas on what may help.......
Just insulting someone's beliefs, and then expecting them to change, is unlikely to work. All that tends to do is increase your smugness and sense of superiority at their expense. We are all the products of our environment and hereditary - that is what we all have in common. People's views are more likely to change if they change their environmental factors.(The books I've read and the theologians I've met have changed my views on Christianity from orthodoxy to progressive -particularly process theology -Christianity.)
Change in environmental factors is what makes life interesting and the life journey more rewarding. I highly recommend it . Travel and experiencing different cultures and different folks with different points of view has enriched life's tapestry for me. And that's why, politically, I'm a democratic socialist, I just wish others had the same opportunities in life as I have had.
I am under no delusion that I will change some people. I think the best I can do is have them serve as a warning for others. I think laughter at the expense of religion is important. You can see it in how it is more widely accepted now. People are a lot more at ease about laughing at faith than they were 20 years ago. Not saying anything is not the answer. Treating batshiat insane Christianity as something you're not allowed to criticize or make fun of works to the advantage of batshiat insane Christianity. We can't make them all jump on a plane (unless we tell them it will take them to Jesus - they may fall for it). We can expose their beliefs and have some fun at the same time. At least, that's my approach. I think it's a good one.
 

chansen

Pleasant Enough
Messages
10,469
Reaction score
7,085
Chansen said," one of the ways we know that we're not at our lowest, is that religious faith is in decline."
Does lowest mean a materialistic poverty to you?
It's one facet, but pick your measuring stick. On the whole, we're not at rock bottom. To suggest we are is a slap in the face of history.

You need your God to be the answer. That's ridiculous. Some of the least Christian or religious societies are some of the most just and happy. This goes to something I wrote here recently, that Christians have to stop assuming they have the answer to everything if they want to be taken seriously.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
I nearly fell of my chair laughing so much at this. Wow!
Your good is based upon what
The ethics of reciprocity.
your own subjective morality which can change at your whim.
Not likely as it is the ethics of reciprocity. Oh all moraity is subjective. Subjective morality is one rooted in human feelings and desires. These are the things that are most important to us, indeed the only things important to us! Objective morality is nonsensical.
Shaky ground to be sure.
How so. Is it based on an unproven god, or that unproven gods morality, like yours.
I imagine I follow God in the here and now, and my imaginary God blesses me in the here and now, as I so chooses it.
I fixed it for you.
I imagine I do good because I love God and believe my imagined God's way is best.
I fixed it for you again.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
I'm a Christian -a follower of the way -and I do good because it's good. I have no idea what will happen to me when I'm dead beyond a shy hope of an afterlife. I don't believe in a controlling God who tells me what to do.
Yet you still believe in an imagined being and you want it to look favourably on you. Do you not?
Perhaps you would benefit from asking yourself why is it that you only acknowledge a literal understanding of Christianity/Christians? Perhaps you have a need to win arguments and always be "right"?
Is there really any other way to under stand literature. That is all Christianity is a book. I'm not out to win arguments, I fail more times than I can count. However, if stating facts, is classed as winning then I'm guilty.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
[U]Pavlos Maros[/U] your quote -----I do good because it's good, not for any reward.

That is a False Statement ---you do good because you get a personal gratification from doing the good or you wouldn't be bothered to do the thing
Really? It could not possibly be due to the ethics of reciprocity. That it is the right thing to do simply for survival's sake, we are a social species. And even if you do get satisfaction from the deed. Is it really a reward, do the people you help reward you with life eternal. All they do is look at you favourably for a short time.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
If you know a thing then you don’t need to believe it.
Wow! I surprised that is the most sensible thing you have ever said.
If you believe a thing it is because you are not sure that you know it.
Not quite. You accept a thing without any actual knowledge of the thing. but you are getting there. There is hope for you yet.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.
For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand,
while imagination embraces the entire world,
and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

― Albert Einstein
As already said: "You're conflating imagination with imaginary beings." However, what I would like to know is why the interpolations.
Einstein said that twice once in an interview with the morning post in 1929, here is the transcript
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”

“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”

“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”



And again in 1931 the book “Cosmic Religion and Other Opinions and Aphorisms” Here is the quote in full.
"At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason. When the eclipse of 1919 confirmed my intuition, I was not in the least surprised. In fact, I would have been astonished had it turned out otherwise. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research."[I/] However he never said " to all we now know and understand," and he never ever ended with. "and all there ever will be to know and understand" So why the interpolations.

Clearly quote mined..
 

Jae

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,982
Reaction score
3,856
I nearly fell of my chair laughing so much at this. Wow!
My pleasure.

Pavlos Maros said:
....Oh all moraity is subjective....
Agreed that all human morality is subjective. Which is why we need something better. Thankfully, we have God's morality as revealed in God's Word.

Pavlos Maros said:
....I fixed it for you. I fixed it for you again.
Don't put words in my mouth.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
Agreed that all human morality is subjective. Which is why we need something better. Thankfully, we have God's morality as revealed in God's Word.
No you imagine you have a god.
Don't put words in my mouth.
I corrected your mistakes. Unless of course, you have proof of your god's existence, and that it is the author of morality. And not simply your imagination.
 

Jae

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,982
Reaction score
3,856
No you imagine you have a god.
I corrected your mistakes. Unless of course, you have proof of your god's existence, and that it is the author of morality. And not simply your imagination.
I said what I wanted to say and want my words left as-is thanks. That you see some of them as "mistakes" doesn't give you license to change them.
 

Pavlos Maros

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,181
Reaction score
387
I said what I wanted to say and want my words left as-is thanks. That you see some of them as "mistakes" doesn't give you license to change them.
Ah! But it does, lest you misinform the vulnerable. And I don't see some of them as mistakes, they are obvious mistakes because you have no proof of what you are saying, so it can only be deemed as hearsay.
 

Jae

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,982
Reaction score
3,856
Ah! But it does, lest you misinform the vulnerable. And I don't see some of them as mistakes, they are obvious mistakes because you have no proof of what you are saying, so it can only be deemed as hearsay.
No it doesn't. You're free to disagree with me, but it's disrespectful to try to twist my words. Since it seems you won't acknowledge that and do the honorable thing by apologizing, I'm out.
 

Ritafee

ONANOFFANONAGIN
Messages
6,219
Reaction score
1,640
Einstein’s mystical view questioned the substantiality of matter and the ultimate reality of space, time and causality.

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”


“Our separation of each other is an optical illusion of consciousness.”


“Space and time are not conditions in which we live, they are modes in which we think”

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”



“There is no place in this new kind of physics for the field and matter, for the field is the only reality.”





“That which is impenetrable to us really exists. Behind the secrets of nature remains something subtle, intangible, and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.”


You want to include imaginary beings in this. That's clearly not what Albert was going for. He wasn't referring to wishing a being into existence because you really want him to exist.
It is you that wants to include imaginary beings in this.
Your imagination of 'God' does not align with mine.
I do not imagine 'God' as 'a him being' like you imagine that I do.
'God' could just as well be the word for 'something intangible and inexplicable'.
'Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend'... could be my 'religion' too.

May the force be with you?
 
Last edited:
Top