How Can a Religion be other than Man-Made?

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BetteTheRed

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This keeps on coming up, and I confess to not getting it.

Religious beliefs are clearly pretty unique to humanity, as far as we know. No communication attempts (even those that are somewhat successful, as between domestic animals and humans, or primates and humans) indicate that non-humans have any sort of religious belief system.

There's lots of different belief systems, they certainly sometimes contradict each other, but they're all a human construction, from the evidence, anyway. Even if one accepts the existence of a supernatural, external to us, "God", clearly this "being" communicates with humans exclusively, right? I mean otherwise, octupi and porpoises and orangutan would be passing on messages from "God", right?

So how could any relationship to any sort of God be other than "man-made"?
 

Luce NDs

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In the end who's the demon who gathers from this crazy history ... unless history is denied than that god can gather that hies the winner as top one ... thus the aboriginal initiation of Hieros ... on we go to hero worship and the other is lost in history!

It is said if this is consumed the Hero Is Within ... there is actually a tome on the topic! Describes innate ... but it could change so don't bet that it is determinate other than the urge to win ... thus flaming ends as flameout ...

It may be a joke according the courts of Giuliani ... the funny myth goes on ...
 

Waterfall

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There's lots of different belief systems, they certainly sometimes contradict each other, but they're all a human construction, from the evidence, anyway. Even if one accepts the existence of a supernatural, external to us, "God", clearly this "being" communicates with humans exclusively, right? I mean otherwise, octupi and porpoises and orangutan would be passing on messages from "God", right?

So how could any relationship to any sort of God be other than "man-made"?
Well there was the donkey that talked to Baalam and then whether you believe God communicates through the stars or the heavens or speaks using nature. Noah supposedly swallowed by a whale, etc....
 

Mendalla

Agnostic pantheist gorilla
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Religious beliefs are clearly pretty unique to humanity, as far as we know.
OTOH, they are not unique to our species, only to our genus. We have good archeological evidence for religious beliefs in Neanderthals, which likely means Denisovans and homo longi (assuming they aren't the same thing) had them as well, being contemporary with, and from the same evolutionary branch as, us and Neanderthals. There's some suggestions homo naledi had some kind of spiritual beliefs but that's controversial. So the question becomes, where did they begin? Did pre-homo genii like Australopithecus and Pithecanthropus have them, or did they begin with homo? And would we even recognize spirituality that was quite different from our own, such as that of cetaceans? After all, we have sometimes misclassified or misunderstood the beliefs and teachings of other cultures (e.g. classifying Confucianism as a religion rather than a philosophy), let alone other species.

But, yes, I do hold that religion is 100% human-created, regardless of which humans it started with. It may come out of our encounters with a "bigger reality" that is denoted by "God" or whatever, but it is very much a product of our thought and imagination and therefore needs to be treated as such. Which mean, among other things, that no tradition can be held to have a "lock" on absolute truth in these matters. They are all equally right or wrong, just in different aspects. Which makes individuals taking responsibility to learn and understand what their neighbours believe, and to love and respect those beliefs (not just tolerate them), all the more important.
 

Luce NDs

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Well there was the donkey that talked to Baalam and then whether you believe God communicates through the stars or the heavens or speaks using nature. Noah supposedly swallowed by a whale, etc....

Then there was the story of the Judean Lion beaten to death by an ass' jawbone ... itas biblical ... must be something of virtue in there!
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ----you said -----So how could any relationship to any sort of God be other than "man-made"?

My view -----Religion is just a set of belief systems that Humans themselves make up and follow ---Society has to have something to believe in -----People think their Religion gives them hope and gives them a sense of belonging to a group who believe the same as they do -------when people set up their Religions they bring in their own set of rules and traditions of how there Religion will adhered to one needs to follow these rules to say they belong to that Religion --

Religion keeps people in bondage to follow their way of beliefs -------So all Religions are Man made ------there is no personal relationship with any god in Religion you are married to their Rules --ways and traditions which are all human driven ------The Religion can say they are following a certain god but that still can't give you a personal relationship with that god -------

Having a Personal Relationship with the God of Abraham ---Isaac and Jacob has nothing to do with a man made Religion -----The personal relationship with this God is through Faith and not just any Faith --it is Faith that is given through hearing His word ------This Faith is inbirthed in us and is an actual substance which can produce what the word says ------this Word is driven by Faith alone --not by any Religion -----

I don't know about other Religions ----how they say you have or can have a personal relationship with the god that the religion uses as their god ------

This says here for instance -----

Search Results

Featured snippet from the web​


Buddhists seek to reach a state of nirvana, following the path of the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, who went on a quest for Enlightenment around the sixth century BC. There is no belief in a personal god. Buddhists believe that nothing is fixed or permanent and that change is always possible


New Age movement, movement that spread through the occult and metaphysical religious communities in the 1970s and ʾ80s. It looked forward to a “New Age” of love and light and offered a foretaste of the coming era through personal transformation and healing.

I say

So we see that not all man made Religions rely on a Personal Relationship with a deity --some are self driven ------they tell you what you need to do to attain this person transformation and you follow their way of getting there all by yourself ----

Christianity is a Religion that is suppose to believes in the God of the Bible ---but just believing there is a God of the Bible will not give you a personal relationship with that God ----

So Religion and a Personal Relationship with God are 2 different things ---you don't need any Religion to have a personal Relationship with the God of the Bible -----

No Religion mentioned here in the way -------just a close personal relationship

The Greek word for----- the way ----
Strong's Concordance
hodos:
Usage: a way, road, journey, path.

in the saying of Christ, ἐγώ εἰμί ἡ ὁδός I am the way by which one passes, i. e. with whom all who seek approach to God must enter into closest fellowship,
 

GordW

Church-Geek-Oramus
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All religious systems/religions are human creations. At the same time many of them, particularly the three "Peoples of the Book", have made claims that the system's rules and beliefs have been handed to them directly from the Divine. Interestingly it is not unknown for a devout Christian to acknowledge the Hinduism or Islam or Shamanism is a human creation and then insist the Christianity is not. (I am sure you can substitute other faith systems in that sentence).

As @Mendalla said, these systems are a response to an experience of something beyond our full understanding.
 

Waterfall

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Well as I was told during my thread asking why the story of the adulterous woman in John 7:53-8:11 was added to the Bible and attributed to Jesus, when it was thought not to actually be about Jesus but could be.....if it contains a truth, regarding Gods love and mercy, then it's okay.
So it seems the Bible contains many of these "truths" through myths, stories (including supernatural ones) and some actual historical events. Seemingly all put together by mankind, that want to point to a higher power that is holding everything together that will keep us humble and respectful of what's really in control in this universe and what change we are actually capable of.
 

ChemGal

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OTOH, they are not unique to our species, only to our genus. We have good archeological evidence for religious beliefs in Neanderthals, which likely means Denisovans and homo longi (assuming they aren't the same thing) had them as well, being contemporary with, and from the same evolutionary branch as, us and Neanderthals. There's some suggestions homo naledi had some kind of spiritual beliefs but that's controversial. So the question becomes, where did they begin? Did pre-homo genii like Australopithecus and Pithecanthropus have them, or did they begin with homo? And would we even recognize spirituality that was quite different from our own, such as that of cetaceans? After all, we have sometimes misclassified or misunderstood the beliefs and teachings of other cultures (e.g. classifying Confucianism as a religion rather than a philosophy), let alone other species.

But, yes, I do hold that religion is 100% human-created, regardless of which humans it started with. It may come out of our encounters with a "bigger reality" that is denoted by "God" or whatever, but it is very much a product of our thought and imagination and therefore needs to be treated as such. Which mean, among other things, that no tradition can be held to have a "lock" on absolute truth in these matters. They are all equally right or wrong, just in different aspects. Which makes individuals taking responsibility to learn and understand what their neighbours believe, and to love and respect those beliefs (not just tolerate them), all the more important.
And that's looking at it from our perspective.
Bees seem good at communicating with one another for example, if they had religion would we recognize it. What about with dolphins?
Do I think it's likely? No. Possible? Sure.
 

Luce NDs

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Is an encounter with the unknown psyche a normal thing or metaphysical or just beyond natural .... supernatural or hyper?

May explain hyperspace ... said to be out there!

Hypo space is down there ... flushed ...
 

unsafe

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4,959
Comment from OP -----
So how could any relationship to any sort of God be other than "man-made"?

I say
With God and by that I mean ---the God of Abraham --Issac and Jacob ------Man cannot by himself enter into a relationship with this God as God's Creation is born away from God because of their sin nature ----the person has to be drawn by God to enter into a right relationship with him according to scripture ----

John 6 ---read the chapter for yourselves ---just posting this -----verses 41-44

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I say ------So what does this word draw used in this scripture mean -----

helkó: to drag
Usage: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.
metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44

i say ---
So Followers of the Way of Jesus do not nor can they form a right relationship with this God unless God Himself is involved in pulling on the heart of the person and then that person has a free choice to accept or refuse that drawing or pulling -----

So in this case ---God is the initiator of the relationship ---so it is not man made or driven first by man ------

I say -----The word Christian originated from the Gentile unbelievers --read all if interested --just posting this

What is the meaning of the term Christian?​


The followers of Jesus Christ were first referred to as “Christians” by the Gentiles of Syrian Antioch, and the name was more than likely meant as an insult (see Acts 11:26).

In the New Testament, believers never refer to themselves as “Christians”; rather, they use such terms as brethren (Acts 15:1; 1 Corinthians 16:20, NAS), disciples (Acts 11:26; 14:24, NKJV), and saints (Acts 9:13; 2 Corinthians 13:13, ESV). Before his conversion, Saul of Tarsus sought out those “who belonged to the Way” (Acts 9:2), indicating that an early label for Christians could have been “people of the Way” (see also Acts 19:9; 24:22).

Believers in Christ came to be called “Christians” during a time of rapid expansion in the church. Persecution had forced many believers from Jerusalem, and they scattered to various areas, taking the gospel with them.
 

Luce NDs

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Be happy ... in serendipity and know you cannot change the stones and stoics!

In the interim carve some images in the stones ... they won't know as the gods told them knowledge was evil!

This can be warped and corrupted ...
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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unsafe, I try to talk to you, but I don't really ever get that your responses answer my questions.

How could your beliefs, couched in human words, in a human-written text, be anything other than a "human" construction? Have you got pets? Are they saved? Do your local chipmunks have a belief system?
 

Luce NDs

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Chipmunks here worship a giant two-legged deity who hands down nuts from heaven.:LOL:

So the story goes about chip and dale ... one where the chip was removed ... leaving a dale or sometimes referred to as a glen ... a gap in the system of solids! For all we know for sure ... it could be something other than what we know ... but those that believe they grasp the entire thing ... no that isn't known for sure and something of the far shore ... how do we get there from here? It is a remaining question in the form of essence ... a ghost of a chance?
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ------I Say to you ------I try to talk to you but you just don't seem to get it -------

This is your Quote -------How could your beliefs, couched in human words, in a human-written text, be anything other than a "human" construction?


I say ------well that is your belief -----that is not my belief ---so here me now -----this is what I believe -----My believe is not steeped in human words or human written text which came from Humans minds -------

My Belief is Steeped in believing and trusting what the Scripture says -----that it is God inspired ---and no prophecy was ever written by man -----in my belief God dictated to the authors what to write ------

Isaiah for instance could not have predicted that the Messiah was coming and described what was going to take place with the shedding of His Blood and His death and what that means for People by a human mind or words ----so if you want to believe that Isaiah got lucky and just made a stab at saying that then that is your right -----but that is not How I see the Scripture ---

So we view the words of the text in different lights -------you see as human --I see it as Spiritual -and Faith Filled which means for me the Words are alive and active -----by and through the Faith which comes from hearing ---reading and studying the word ---and this Faith is a substance ---which can produce what the God inspired Text says -----this is my belief ---

Greek word for substance ----which is what God;s Faith is

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance

a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing")entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

For the believer, 5287 /hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths

I say
Scripture says that God created this planet and everything in it by speaking Words ---The words He spoke Created because they were Faith Filled -----If you do not want to believe that ---then that is your right -----just as it is my right to believe that God's words created everything on this planet ----including us

You Post your views and how you see things ----and I do the same -----and it gives 2 different views -----is all

So to answer this your Question ------How could your beliefs, couched in human words, in a human-written text, be anything other than a "human" construction?

My beliefs are not crouched in human words or human text ----Why is that so hard for you to believe or to understand is my question ----??????
 

Luce NDs

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What the the gods most famous for but wars and full blown emotions that drive thoughts off as a mere essence of their former selves?

This may create hard cases to delve into for which to extract or even add to!

Then there are those biblical verses of god that encourage question and explain the expanse of the story beyond the very earth itself ... heavenly information denoting the state of complex psyche? That's enough to raise ire in those institutionalized and seized so as not being able to go on the endless journey ... eternal rovers ... along with a fue and a puff! My wife took this as the rabid Fue-Phoe as a child ... and Phoenix flamed ... may be the extensive Alah ... Gory 'd?

Could be the false bull and Canon ... this has carried on ever since the Vaticanus ... a book of dog forming nick's ... Nietzsche ... and chaos expanded!

It went through a series of a minimum of 13 translations ... and some insecure folks can't get through one before getting stuck! Some knowledge of ancient communication may be prerequisite ... some call it glossing over or even glossolalia as they do not wish to go that deep ... like ink in a dark and closed threshold ... when we step into the mind of myth and whatever! Psychologists have a field day with what is believed or not ... and thus hay making ... a lot of ruminating?
 

Luce NDs

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Juiced and Jew'd takes on a mystery a Judah and the Judean Punch line ... and essences flowed! Some of wrath and others of great Joey ... the dream maker for those that wished ...

It is said that Joe and the Caesar got on the wrong side of the Egyptian Queen ... right out of her tree! Alexandria sunk in the turmoil ... and many tomes burned!

As time goes on the folks in this essence change names to allow chaos ... that's a stirred headman ... sometimes his neck is red from the twist of looking about!
 

Redbaron

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My Belief is Steeped in believing and trusting what the Scripture says -----that it is God inspired ---and no prophecy was ever written by man -----in my belief God dictated to the authors what to write ------
So, why do you believe these things? Because the Bible said so? Can you understand the concept of circular reasoning?
By the way, though there are times when God told particular prophets what to say or write, the idea that God dictated to ALL the authors the WRODS to write is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. That is a later add-on.
 

unsafe

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Redbaron -----So, why do you believe these things? Because the Bible said so?

Because I believe by Faith that God Said so ----not man -------

This is from guess who ----Got questions

What are some examples of circular reasoning in issues that Christians debate?​


Simply put, circular reasoning is an attempt to support a statement or claim by repeating it in different or stronger terms. Circular reasoning is false logic, and it shows up in many fields where assumptions and presuppositions are made. A classic example is the evolutionist’s dating of fossils according to the rock strata they are found in, while at the same time dating the strata according to the “index fossils” they contain. Dating a rock based on the fossil it contains only works if it is assumed that evolution is true. As one paleontologist admitted, “For most biologists, the strongest reason for accepting the evolutionary hypothesis is their acceptance of some theory that entails it” (David G. Kitts, “Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory,” in Evolution, September 1974, p. 466).

Christians, too, sometimes resort to circular reasoning. The statement “I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true” may make perfect sense to a believer—it is a faith-based statement—but in a logical argument it would be considered circular reasoning. The claim uses its claim to prove its claim. Skeptics and critics of Christianity often allege that Christians use circular reasoning to defend their biblical beliefs. Such criticisms are largely untrue; however, we should be careful to use valid reasoning methods in support of truth.

Another example of circular reasoning relates to God’s existence. Some Christians have argued that God exists because the Bible says God exists—and, since God wrote the Bible, it must be true. This argument is problematic from a purely logical standpoint since it bases belief in God’s existence on the Christian belief that the Bible comes from God.

The Bible does assume the existence of God, and it does claim to be the truth (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 33:4). Those statements must be taken on faith, which should surprise no one. The Bible says faith is required. Without faith, it is impossible to please God, and faith is the foundation of the Christian life (Hebrews 11:6; Romans 1:17).

At the same time, there are many solid, logical arguments to build a plausible case for Christian belief. The existence of God can be deduced from the existence of creation (Psalm 19:1), and the veracity of the Bible through historical evidences (John 10:37–38). Circular reasoning is unnecessary. We can utilize a combination of biblical data, logical reasoning, philosophy, and historical and scientific evidence to present the best possible case regarding Christian teaching. Many Christian authors have written defenses of the faith, including C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler, and more.

The Bible challenges Christians to be prepared to explain the hope we have. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander” (1 Peter 3:15–16).

Ultimately, the Bible must be accepted by faith, and it is only the Word of God that has the power to change lives (John 17:17). Can a person be brought closer to the truth through logical reasoning? Yes. Can a person accept the truth of Christianity without faith? No.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbaron ----you said -----the idea that God dictated to ALL the authors the WRODS to write is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. That is a later add-on.

I say -----Now you make this statement ---so prove it ---LOL that is just to funny -----I won't hold my breath while your finding support for your case with that -------

Redbaron ---you can believe that if you want to ----but that is not my belief -------

I say ------So you stick with the add on and I will stick with the --all scripture is God Breathed --which is what Scripture says ------

But for anyone who might want to read this ---I am posting here ----

God-breathed.html
 
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