Fools say there is no God - Psalm 53

[Mendalla]

Well, that a statement that might provoke a debate in this day and age, eh.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 53 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition

Psalm 53 Denunciation of Godlessness - To the leader: according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David. Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; they commit abominable acts; there is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven on humankind to see if there are any who are...

www.biblegateway.com

But what does it really mean in historical context. A recent podcast on Gone Medieval discussing atheism in the medieval world made the point that atheism in ancient and medieval times meant something different than in the modern era (mostly, there were a few school of philosophy like Epicureanism that came close). The Greek original "átheos" is apparently best translated as "godless", which in English does not necessarily mean one does not believe in a deity(ies) but that one behaves in an immoral way, acts "without God" in the sense of not following divine law or morality. It's a charge we see being made against Christians by pagans (and vice versa) or between Catholics and Protestants during the post-Reformation conflicts. So Psalm 53 may not be talking about philosophical atheism (since the writer and their society may not even have conceived of the idea) as we know it today, but about turning away from God's guidance on morality and behaviour.

So what do you take away from 53? Is it condemning non-belief? Or believers who do not actually follow God's teachings and laws (see 119)? Is it applicable to 21st century atheism, which did not exist in the time and society where it was written?

And the mood here. Is it anger at the fools? Frustration? Desire to teach and enlighten them?

And, of course, what else do you take away from this psalm? All thoughts welcome, of course. I'm just picking at one or two threads here.

 

[Mendalla]

Eek, got busy with housework this morning and almost forgot to post this week's BPoTW. Here it is! Have at it!

 

[Mendalla]

One other note from the podcast: They pointed out that in Latin, atheos is usually rendered as "impious", which is more about how one shows respect for the gods, ancestors, etc. in the Roman world rather than belief. Again, Jews and Christians sometimes got hit with this one since they did not respect the traditional gods properly through sacrifice.

The podcast in question:

How to be an Atheist in the Middle Ages | Gone Medieval

We tend to think that it was impossible not to subscribe to Christianity in the Middle Ages.

play.acast.com

 

[Waterfall]

Where does Godlessness come from? Can one blame Illiterate peasants of the middle ages, or those who don't bother to question? Relying on the elite of the church to translate and interpret....even now?
Godlessness can be passed onto others as Godliness if it suits situations by those in powerful positions in the church...or govt.
Fools may say there is no God, but many fools will follow "God" also (blindly).

 

[Luce NDs]

If god is love or word ... a difference of being wordless or loveless; leaving the loveless in a place of cold logic!

The wordless? That's something else again and a different vantage point may be required ...

 

[paradox3]

To say there is no God equates to behaving badly, according to this psalm.

Sin. Evil deeds. Wickedness. Moral corruption.

But those who do not call out to God can expect to be terrified and annihilated by God.

There is a message here that God will prevail and restore the well-being of God's people. Jacob will rejoice and Israel will be happy.

 

[Mystic]

First, the correct translation of 53:1 and 14:1 is "The fool (singular) has said in his heart, "There is no god." Tbe NRSV mistranslates this for polical correctness (i. e. to erase the "his"). This is significant because it implies a broader range for the "fool" label.
Second, Psalm 14 and 53 are so similar that they should be studied together.
Third, the comparision with a Medieval mindset is bogus due to the many centuries that separate it from the ancient Hebrew mindset.
Neither psalm is just about the godless because the particular fools in question actually proclaim, "There is no God."
So the key question is what the psalmist expects the particular type of fool in question to do to remedy his atheism.
I will address this question in my next planned post.

 

[paradox3]

Interesting that the psalmist considers the godless person to be a fool. Kind of takes the winds out of that person's sails, doesn't it?

 

[paradox3]

@Mystic
Psalms 14 and 53 are so similar! Thanks for highlighting this. I had no idea.

 

[Luce NDs]

Fools examine items of contention that they were told to avoid and thus the folly of a great space where nothing is learned of ...

Well jumped up ... isn't that what causes people to fall for the love 've it? Thus fitz ... until conflicts cause ... well you know that mortals can't cooperate for long ... consider how long Mystic remains passive ... he appears as deeply reactive, expecting all else to be smooth, still and quiet!

It is just not in the book if you read into it ... anything but superficially ... it causes crap on the face of it ... fascist support?

Therein vast sophistication is required to turn our Pho' din to fertilizer for the Magi forest ... Rye Po' in the bo-ish ...

Did you know the relation between rye and histamines a naked reaction to vegetable ju sis ... mortals must be stunned for such extractions ...

 

[paradox3]

This psalm offers us two themes which are commonly in both Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

Goodness will eventually triumph over evil.

And living a moral life is worthwhile.

I wonder how other world faiths address these things? I really have no idea.

 

[Luce NDs]

This psalm offers us two themes which are commonly in both Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

Goodness will eventually triumph over evil.

And living a moral life is worthwhile.

I wonder how other world faiths address these things? I really have no idea.

By the time goodness arrives will we all have passed ... Dunne? Prodigal ... a waste? How do folk get so stunned ... wild guess?

 

[Mystic]

So what is the atheistic "fool" not doing that makes him a fool? Well, most atheists are agnostics.
An agnostic can't be certain there is no God. But if they can't be certain, neither can they be certain they shouldn't be certain.
If they can't be certain they shouldn't be certain, they are morally obliged to meet God's conditions for encountering Him through mystical experience.
Such a divine encounter can be achieved by neither rational reflection nor philosophical apologetic arguments and requires a burning spiritual quest:

"God looks down from heaven... to see if there are any who actually seek after God (53:2)."

It is easier to feel your way to God than to think your way to God. To feel your way to God requires a sustained passionate longing and expectant open-minded meditation:

"When you search for me, you will find me, if you seek me with all your heart, I will let you find me (Jeremiah 23:13-14) ."

 

[Luce NDs]

So what is the atheistic "fool" not doing that makes him a fool? Well, most atheists are agnostics.
An agnostic can't be certain there is no God. But if they can't be certain, neither can they be certain they shouldn't be certain.
If they can't be certain they shouldn't be certain, they are morally obliged to meet God's conditions for encountering Him through mystical experience.
Such a divine encounter can be achieved by neither rational reflection nor philosophical apologetic arguments and requires a burning spiritual quest:

"God looks down from heaven... to see if there are any who actually seek after God (53:2)."

It is easier to feel your way to God than to think your way to God. To feel your way to God requires a sustained passionate longing and expectant open-minded meditation:

"When you search for me, you will find me, if you seek me with all your heart, I will let you find me (Jeremiah 23:13-14) ."

Is there anything more mystical than being screwed, shafted and bored by the powers that say they know ... but are no better off than as if encountering nothing ... thus all thought is extracted as if placed on a rack and cranked ... and the fire tender burns a hole in whatever was there initially ... now initiated on how to get burned out when there is no surrounding problem from the environment ... trumps all ... rite?

I seem to sense that on should respect the surrounding support system but then ... there are those that say to rake it under as if hoed ... thus hoo dead essences ... like castor plants !

As life seems to be exhausting itself ... speak out against those that hate lessor life ... even if it is supportive! Neglecting adequate response is a rite of irresponsibility as everything goes down in compost ... u nani MU's? MU's went into relief ... subtle eh?

 

[paradox3]

The psalmist tells us that the wise seek after God (v. 2). But the context seems to be for moral guidance rather than for mystical experience.

Maybe the people accepted the requirement to follow God's law without even having a personal experience of God.

 

[Mystic]

The psalmist tells us that the wise seek after God (v. 2). But the context seems to be for moral guidance rather than for mystical experience.

Maybe the people accepted the requirement to follow God's law without even having a personal experience of God.

The Psalmist insists on passionately seeking God. One does not seek moral guidance without seeking God. You can't separate mystical experience from moral guidance from God. If the atheist/ agnostic experiences moral guidance from God, then the Psalmist assumes the atheist will also experience the God who imparts this moral guidance.

 

[Luce NDs]

Thus the wisps and nebulae continue as evidence to the alternate are denied to support mysticism while all the time denying the action ...

Such is the world of the lie as laid out for the dead to mind ... recall, powers declare there is no such item of interest! Thus if you think ... you're not ... so it goes ... prepare for the drop ... folly?

 

[Luce NDs]

Recall that emotions and thoughts are all just essence ... some vapours of Freud and other condensed arches ... different tense of Arche ayes ... raised brows?

Bridges next to de nose ... Pine Och Yoh ... lyres?

Always note the state of grandmother's nose ...

 

[paradox3]

The Psalmist insists on passionately seeking God. One does not seek moral guidance without seeking God. You can't separate mystical experience from moral guidance from God. If the atheist/ agnostic experiences moral guidance from God, then the Psalmist assumes the atheist will also experience the God who imparts this moral guidance.

The psalmist does not insist on "passionately" seeking God in this translation.

Humanists would argue that moral guidance comes from a variety of sources including from within the self.

To say that one does not seek moral guidance without seeking God is a faith statement on your part.

 

[Mystic]

The psalmist does not insist on "passionately" seeking God in this translation.

I'm afraid your reading this psalm through the lens of your UCCan church's sterile stoicism. In the ancient Hebrew mindset, seeking God requires passion and must be pursued "with all your heart." (so Jeremiah 29:13-14) and God is sought with the mystical expectation, "I will let you find me (29:14)."
For the Psalmist, to seek God is to seek "His face," that is, His essence and character as opposed to what God might or might not do for us.

"Come," my heart says, "Seek His face!" Your face do I seek. Do not hide your face from me (27:8)." 42:1
'Let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice. Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His face continually (105:3-4)."

The passionate longing needed to seek God's face is powerfully expressed in the seeker's confrontation with the skeptic in Psalm 42:1-2:

"My tears have been my food day and night, while people say to me, "Where is your God?"
"'As a deer longs for a flowing stream, so my soul longs for you, O God. When shall I come and behold the face of God? My sou; thirsts for God."

Humanists would argue that moral guidance comes from a variety of sources including from within the self.

You are making the mistake of reading modern a humanist mentality into an ancient Israelite mindset.

To say that one does not seek moral guidance without seeking God is a faith statement on your part.

But the Psalm 53 does not address seeking moral guidance in the abstract, but rather seeking God. So the key issue is what the Psalmist mean by seeking God.