EV only by 2035? Realistic or hype?

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ChemGal

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The environment is a huge difference here, chemgal.

I have a number of friends/family who are Quebecois. They are competitive (sometimes bad - my sister's words) drivers, by nature.

BUT, they are also the most heavily gas-taxed province, and they have reacted, in true capitalist fashion, by preferring smaller/compact cars. I'm afraid that if you think competitiveness/dangerousness of driving has anything to do with the size/make of the vehicle, you are wrong.
Tim is also in Edmonton.
The competition factor comes down to visibility a lot - that was my issue. Plus getting splashed, headlights in rearview etc. When it comes to getting hit 2 going the same speed, same direction, bigger is typically going to end up ok.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Thus autonomous and isolated becomes an enigma for the sol ... where does it dash to for hiding on a point? It is a spot of trouble, concern and care as the preferred place pursued is wearing out ... that's the bag according to Socrates!
 

L84Dnr

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Electric vehicles have a number of advantages, but the largest from an environmental PoV is that you can switch fuels. An internal combustion engine will always be dependent on the fuel it is designed to burn. By contrast, an EV burns whatever powers the grid. In Canada that's dominantly hydro, with fossil fuels making up ~20%. Even in countries where fossil fuels dominate power generation EVs still make sense because even though they're effectively burning fossil fuels now it makes it much easier to switch to something less destructive tomorrow. You only have to replace a few large power generators rather than several million small vehicle engines.

If you're smart about it you can reduce your emissions even further using EVs and a little knowledge of how the grid functions. A lot of the fossil fuel burning power plants in Canada are only used to supply power during peak demand, when hydro and other sources are unable to keep up. So if you set your EV to charge in the wee hours of the morning when demand is low it should consume a lot less fossil than the average power generation stats would suggest. It's one of the notions being put forward in a "smart grid", a power distribution system that's a little more sophisticated than what we currently use and a lot more efficient.
 

L84Dnr

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Were you currently to weigh the total environmental cost of a petroleum powered Smart car (basically a very efficient motorcycle engine inside of a protective car like frame) and a lithium battery including Prius, I'm not sure which would come out on top.

It's a poor comparison. The Prius is a hybrid, not an EV, and a bit of a monstrosity. Instead, compare two Smart cars: one an ICE and the other an EV.

And why do people seem so concerned about those lithium batteries anyway? Sure the mining of lithium consumes energy, but it isn't as if the lead and steel in an internal combustion engine are rendered from panda dung.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
An internal combustion engine will always be dependent on the fuel it is designed to burn
Yep, but it has the advantage that you can have a small container in your car if you run out and don’t have to be towed to the next charging station. I saw a film on tv ( german) where one person did a trip from Munich to Croatia. Took about twice the time, planning was difficult due to few charging stations, one time she missed the highway exit to the charging station and had to drive considerable longer to turn around and get back. She often didn’t dare to turn on the AC because it used up so much more power and only turned it on to cool the car while it was charging. Payment at the stations also was an issue as she had to buy certain cards as it didn’t alway work with credit cards. Then there were different plugs at some stations. She ended up paying a fraction of what it would have been in gas. She also learned that it’s not necessary to charge it always to full, as that saves time.She had several apps that showed charging stations.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Yep, but it has the advantage that you can have a small container in your car if you run out and don’t have to be towed to the next charging station. I saw a film on tv ( german) where one person did a trip from Munich to Croatia. Took about twice the time, planning was difficult due to few charging stations, one time she missed the highway exit to the charging station and had to drive considerable longer to turn around and get back. She often didn’t dare to turn on the AC because it used up so much more power and only turned it on to cool the car while it was charging. Payment at the stations also was an issue as she had to buy certain cards as it didn’t alway work with credit cards. Then there were different plugs at some stations. She ended up paying a fraction of what it would have been in gas. She also learned that it’s not necessary to charge it always to full, as that saves time.She had several apps that showed charging stations.

Then there are people that demand on simple in a world that is under pressure to get more and more complex ... for reasons completely unknown by the masses! Under free will they don't wish to know that and thus naivete spreads because we do what was the iconic example afforded us!

Imagine folk processing intelligence autonomously ... independently when conform is the word! It makes it easy for the entire world to go off track ...

Resemble sheep going off a mountain? Some plunge from the edge is inevitable ... may be caused by a peculiar blindness!
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
I resent government leaders like Turdeau setting targets for 10 to 30 years away without taking substantial action this year. It is poisonous hot air.

If we were not making several long drives last winter, I would have seriously considered getting an EV when we got a newer vehicle. However, it is not helpful when governments make a current fad that is being followed by fewer than 10% of car buyers, and make it the only choice for a specific date. It is a failure to deal with the reeal problems: people buying vehicles bigger than they need and people driving more than is necessary. WE consume too much in too many ways and going EV could not achieve more than about 10 to 20% of the reductions we need to make. I really liked the article about how we need lighter vehicles, ICE or EV or hybrid more than we need to replace ICE with EVs.

Even if all new vehicles are EVs in 2035, we will have ECE personal vehicles until about 2055.

We need to deal with behaviours more than changing our source of enegery. No political leaders currently have the courage needed to take real action on environmental issues.
 

ChemGal

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Infrastructure really needs to be considered with electric. There was a news article recently about the costs to fit a home with the right set up to charge a vehicle, depending on the current inputs in a home it could be a few thousand or it could be $45000 or something in that range.
Chemguy came across something about iuseage, ine person charging their vehicle overnight was close to maxing out the system. So even with the upgrades, 2 people both doing so on a stretch of street isn't possible currently in our area. And that's single family homes. Condos, townhouses etc.
So maybe that's where the federal government needs to start - suplying the infrastructure if the charging requirements aren't expected to drastically change.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
I remember back when we were demonstrating against the nuclear power plants and their waste, which nobody knew how to handle, the ( satiric ) saying was: “ What do we need nuclear power plants for, in my house, we got power coming out of the electrical outlet”.
Canada is fortunate that a lot of electricity is based on water power, but it still needs to ramp up a lot more alternative energy sources.
And reducing consumerism would be a big one.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
If the human infrastructure is stressed out by capitalistic dreams will it turn antisocial and bring the house down?

God said something of that order ... I'm told!

Go figure or otherwise ponder what is alien ... unfamiliar substance or insubstantial? Many are said to be contempable of the familiar ... thus we turn to not knowing ...

Fued for the mind as it blows through ... from those fans on the hill ... mental windmills? They too go round ...
 

L84Dnr

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Yep, but it has the advantage that you can have a small container in your car if you run out and don’t have to be towed to the next charging station.

And, in principle, an EV could carry a spare battery for exactly the same purpose.

I saw a film on tv ( german) where one person did a trip from Munich to Croatia. Took about twice the time, planning was difficult due to few charging stations, one time she missed the highway exit to the charging station and had to drive considerable longer to turn around and get back. She often didn’t dare to turn on the AC because it used up so much more power and only turned it on to cool the car while it was charging. Payment at the stations also was an issue as she had to buy certain cards as it didn’t alway work with credit cards. Then there were different plugs at some stations. She ended up paying a fraction of what it would have been in gas. She also learned that it’s not necessary to charge it always to full, as that saves time.She had several apps that showed charging stations.

These are all infrastructure problems. How many of them would exist if EV charging stations were standardized and as common as gas stations?

I'll grant you. EVs aren't brilliant for long road trips but that's a small minority of what most people are doing. Most people are doing short commutes to and from work/school/shopping/home. In most suburban settings the bulk of individuals could get a full day of normal driving off a single charge with room to spare.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
I'll grant you. EVs aren't brilliant for long road trips but that's a small minority of what most people are doing. Most people are doing short commutes to and from work/school/shopping/home. In most suburban settings the bulk of individuals could get a full day of normal driving off a single charge with room to spare.
Yes, but those short trips could be handled with public transportation. Do most Canadians live in suburbia? And how do you handle the rest of us?
Then there is the question of how to run trucks ( garbage trucks, loaders, delivery vehicles) without having to charge all the time?
I am all for pouring more money into research for that. Still- now can we produce that huge amount of electricity?And considering that batteries are not that great at keeping charge in cold temperatures, is electricity really the right thing for northern Canadians?
 

ChemGal

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I'll grant you. EVs aren't brilliant for long road trips but that's a small minority of what most people are doing. Most people are doing short commutes to and from work/school/shopping/home. In most suburban settings the bulk of individuals could get a full day of normal driving off a single charge with room to spare.
What do you do with vehicles though where it's a decent fraction?
A lot of people who do work in the field have pickup trucks both for the hauling aspect and for accessibility in field areas. There's a lot of city driving done with them and personal use is a major perk that factors into hiring and retention.
My sister, in health care sales doesn't need a pickup truck, but she does have an SUV, that again is mostly city use, but she does travel for work enough where a vehicle is needed for those trips.

Due to the nature of the work, public transit isn't reasonable to get to the other sites where they work.

It's possible to have fleet vehicles that aren't personally assigned depending on the amount of out of town trips that are required and how much notice is given. It would be a big change in compensation though.
 

ChemGal

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Yes, but those short trips could be handled with public transportation. Do most Canadians live in suburbia? And how do you handle the rest of us?
Then there is the question of how to run trucks ( garbage trucks, loaders, delivery vehicles) without having to charge all the time?
I am all for pouring more money into research for that. Still- now can we produce that huge amount of electricity?And considering that batteries are not that great at keeping charge in cold temperatures, is electricity really the right thing for northern Canadians?
I think the changes will definitely occur in urban areas first for a lot of those reasons.
But only sell EV by 2035? It's not reasonable.
I could see the majority of cars going that way or at least as hybrids.
 

jimkenney12

Well-Known Member
There are hard to predict but significant weather, economic and social events and changes that are coming quickly. Weather events on both coasts demonstrated our current infrastructure is not up to what we need. We will need to change what we need infrastructure for, how we will build it better and smarter, and pay for it. BC paid for the Coquahalla with tolls for about 25 years. We may need to do the same with more of our highways.

Carpools, new public transit options, and other possibilities will be explored and some adopted. We need to do better education of drivers so they will not believe they need vehicle options they are choosing now. One winter I had an hour drive to a school where I taught for a few months. I was driving an Aspen with balding tires and I was often the first vehicle on some stretches of highway. The only time I hit the ditch was when I came upon a patch of black ice and I was lucky enough to slow down enough that I was able to keep driving, easing back on to the highway and continuing to school. The vehicles in the ditch that I passed when the roads were bad were pickups and four wheel drive vehicles. My vehicle of preference for winter driving is a small front wheel drive sedan like the Aspen, Toyota Corolla, or Pontiac G5.
 

L84Dnr

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I think the changes will definitely occur in urban areas first for a lot of those reasons.
But only sell EV by 2035? It's not reasonable.
I could see the majority of cars going that way or at least as hybrids.

I think that it's a ridiculous promise to for any gov't to make but it's hardly unreasonable. The automobile took over from the horse and buggy more quickly.
 

L84Dnr

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What do you do with vehicles though where it's a decent fraction?
A lot of people who do work in the field have pickup trucks both for the hauling aspect and for accessibility in field areas. There's a lot of city driving done with them and personal use is a major perk that factors into hiring and retention.

I work in one such field. Don't use fleet vehicles as hiring perks. Or convert your fleet to EVs. We don't have effective electric trucks yet but that's largely a matter of engineering.
 

L84Dnr

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Yes, but those short trips could be handled with public transportation.

A suboptimal solution that most people find annoying to use. The biggest problem with public transport is that it rarely goes where you need it to.

Do most Canadians live in suburbia?

Fewer than 20% of Canadians live in rural areas according to StatsCan.

And how do you handle the rest of us?

In many cases, exactly the same way. The average range of a middling EV battery is over 200 km/charge. How many people drive further than that in one sitting on a regular basis? A few. but not many. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution but it'd take the vast majority of the ICEs off the road.

Still- now can we produce that huge amount of electricity?

Less horrifyingly than burning great gobs of gasoline. More hydro, wind, solar, nuclear.

And considering that batteries are not that great at keeping charge in cold temperatures, is electricity really the right thing for northern Canadians?

Depends on the battery. The NiMH have significant loss at lower temperatures but lithium batteries suffer less. Regardless, these are all the same Northern Canadians that use engine block heaters, so I'm guessing we can keep the battery compartments cozy in a similar fashion.
 

BetteTheRed

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In many cases, exactly the same way. The average range of a middling EV battery is over 200 km/charge. How many people drive further than that in one sitting on a regular basis? A few. but not many. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution but it'd take the vast majority of the ICEs off the road.

That's more difficult than you think, even in densely populated areas, largely because of the huge price differential in housing in a 90 minute circle around large cities. I live in a small-medium sized city which is essentially a suburb of Toronto, from an employment POV, but the housing, while pricey, is cheaper than anywhere in Toronto. I think that getting to 2035 in hybrids is possible, in solely EV, not so much.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
How does one resell an old EV if the battery has expired? Now new batteries cost upwards of $5000. Will the costs come down so cars can be resold as we do now with gas vehicles or do we just drive it until it dies with no resale value?
 
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