EV only by 2035? Realistic or hype?

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Mendalla

Agnostic pan(en)theist gorilla
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So, the federal government has now moved the drop dead date for internal combustion engines to 2035, five years earlier than planned. Which, to be clear, is a good thing in principle. However, Eric Reguly in the Globe raised some questions that I have been wondering about, too.
  • What about the cost? Poor people are almost strained to buy a car as it is, and electrics are more expensive than gas, a situation that is NOT going to change. Some of the raw materials for them are getting scarce and therefore going up in price (e.g. lithium for batteries and copper for wiring).
  • What about places where electricity is still predominantly generated by fossil fuels, meaning EVs have no real benefit for CO2 reduction? Ontario and Quebec EV drivers really are probably having an impact since those provinces on things like hydro and nuclear for most of their power. But Alberta and Saskatchewan still primarily use fossil fuels.
  • What about the environmental impact of the cars themselves, like the chemicals used in batteries?
  • What about the load placed on the grids? Right now, EVs don't generate much load, but what happens when they are a high percentage of cars on the road.
There's more. I'll link the article but it is paywalled so you can only read it if you're a subscriber, hence my summary above.

His thought is that rather than targeting a shift from internal combustion to EV, the government should be focussing on reducing car use in general with a focus on transit, encouraging home work, and such. Encouraging EVs doesn't solve a lot of the problems we have with too many cars on the road. It might help with CO2 emissions, but that's not the only problem cars create. There's cost of infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc.), the space wasted for parking, cities sprawling due to commuting, and so on.

So what do you think? Is the 2035 target a good plan or should the government be putting its money and energy into other approaches to the problem?

 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
So many factors affect the simple solution ... that we may horse ourselves along about hie burners ... flaming chimera?

Power hunger may demolish this concept ...
 

BetteTheRed

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I'm always surprised at governments committing to 14 year deadlines when they have a mandate, from the beginning, of max 5...

Were you currently to weigh the total environmental cost of a petroleum powered Smart car (basically a very efficient motorcycle engine inside of a protective car like frame) and a lithium battery including Prius, I'm not sure which would come out on top.
 

Mendalla

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I'm always surprised at governments committing to 14 year deadlines when they have a mandate, from the beginning, of max 5...

Were you currently to weigh the total environmental cost of a petroleum powered Smart car (basically a very efficient motorcycle engine inside of a protective car like frame) and a lithium battery including Prius, I'm not sure which would come out on top.
Really, any small ICE car is actually fairly light on emissions nowadays. I have no intention of investing in electric when I buy a new car this Fall for a number of reasons (upgrading the hydro in my garage to take a level 2 charger will eat up my rebate for starters). A compact sedan with a small, electronically controlled engine is going to be fine.

The big problem right now is the proliferation of monster SUVs. Even as electrics, they'll be a serious suck on our hydro grids. Fewer, smaller cars is the way we should be going and instead, a lot of subcompact and compact models are getting canned in favour of CUVs and SUVs. I might have downsized to the Fit from my usual Civic except Honda cancelled it in North America (but are keeping the HRV compact crossover that is based on the same platform). I think Ford is abandoning sedans altogether. Their only car under the Ford brand will be the Mustang. And I think Lincoln is already either all or mostly SUVs.

EDIT: And the Smart is irrelevant now. Daimler has pulled them from the North American market.
 

Mrs.Anteater

Just keep going....
I am always puzzled when someone says “ hydro” and means electricity and not water....

I thought that hydrogen would be the fuel of the future?
 

BetteTheRed

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And the Smart is irrelevant now. Daimler has pulled them from the North American market.

Too bad. Nice little car, although in a typical central Ontario winter, they were somewhat sketchy. I delivered Meals on Wheels a couple of winters with a
Smart car driver. Bit like a tuna can on wheels.
 

GordW

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Much more hype than realisitic in this part of the country. In additiion to the cost factor which has already been raised the infrastructure is simply not available to support them. And there are times (admittedly fewer now than once upon a time) I need a vehicle I can drive for several hours, refuel in 5 minutes or so, and then continue to travel.

I thought that hydrogen would be the fuel of the future?
Producing hydrogen for fuel cells is (or at least was) very energy intensive. As I recall that is the biggest strike against hydrogen becoming a widescale alternative
 

Mendalla

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I am always puzzled when someone says “ hydro” and means electricity and not water....

I thought that hydrogen would be the fuel of the future?
Toyota and Honda thought so, too. Both are now pursuing plug-in electric strategies. The problem, as Gord suggests, is that getting it is not cheap or easy. You have to either crack water into hydrogen and oxygen, which requires electricity, or extract it from hydrocarbons, which releases some carbon emissions. And it need infrastructure to deliver it to the consumer. Plugins just use infrastructure that is already well-established.

And we use "hydro" to refer to electricity because in Eastern Canada, a lot of our electricity in the early days (and still in Quebec thanks to the James Bay project) came from hydroelectric dams.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Bigger is better ... as a matter of avid desires driving intelligence right out the windows of the abstract ... thus generating a self-limiting function for the population enigma ... consequence ... some kind of drop off!

Expect an edge to reality ... beyond that a mystery as we don't know and have been conditioned to life without care or responsibility. Look into the ethos and morose of any elite ...

Some of us search that thin space called balance ... and somebody will try and eliminate you from there in case you learn somethin ...

Such ideographs are an unknown to large masses ... kind 'v3e Eire approaching ether (pure nothing)? Focus on the vanishing point ...
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Travelling on the 401 and 402 (to Sarnia) this weekend, I see that there are large cement pads with about 30 charging stations per pad. They're on both sides of the highways and are new and in the process of being built....so there seems to be some preparation going on for future needs.
 

Mendalla

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Travelling on the 401 and 402 (to Sarnia) this weekend, I see that there are large cement pads with about 30 charging stations per pad. They're on both sides of the highways and are new and in the process of being built....so there seems to be some preparation going on for future needs.
In ONRoutes or carpool lots? Sounds like a grand idea but location is important.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
In ONRoutes or carpool lots? Sounds like a grand idea but location is important.
Right now they're on cement pads with nothing around them....I'm sure something will have to be set up eventually so theres something to do while the car charges.....some cars will take up to 45 minutes to charge.
 

Mendalla

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Right now they're on cement pads with nothing around them....I'm sure something will have to be set up eventually so theres something to do while the car charges.....some cars will take up to 45 minutes to charge.
Seriously. I would have thought they would put them at OnRoute service centers or something. Then you could at least go inside for coffee or lunch or something while your car charges.
 

ChemGal

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Technology will change, but how is someone supposed to get around between distant locations in the winter?
I think there will be a lot of exceptions.
I wonder how hybrids fit in too.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Do powerful institutions reek with common sense ... as sometime improperly indicated in the vernacular because the powers said so?

Is life complex except for those that follow simple protocol ... based on mortal rules?

Thus nothing changes ... as folk can't see it ... I'm told that nothing is like wol've R your I ... fuzzy logic!
 

Mendalla

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I wonder how hybrids fit in too.
Which is really the best solution for mixed use vehicles. A plug-in hybrid in particular can be full electric for short trips, but has the gasoline engine to charge it when you're going longer. I have considered an electric for my second car that is only used in the city (commuting, shopping) but my "highway car" that we use for Ottawa, the cottage, and other driving trips will stay gas or hybrid for the foreseeable future.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
No doubt that the topic will raise considerable arguments and little reasonable discussion as some power raised folk to be capable of competition, conflict and all other sorts of contemptable compositions ... heir gammon (different tense than gamma, thus the gam*ooze; allowing for transliteration from vamoose). May be a ancient Greek item ... lost in time ...

I found it when glossing over some old icons as in glossalia ... a firm departure from rigidity of grammar? Rules do change depending on the time of the writ!

Sometimes one has to get you head/sol in a different place ... metaphorically travelling in the sol of another ... the fixed will say you're out of your skull! If you don't fit in you're gone ... we are like that with religious fanaticism ... thus curios learning is arrested ... 3 monkey rule?
 

ChemGal

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A bit of a different slant to this, but I found it interesting.
I actually sought out information about Tim as I did get single healthy guy living downtown/central vibes. Surprised to see he does have a baby. I don't think bike/trikes are really the solutions for cities like her proposed, especially here. Sure, increase more of them. I can see the aspect though for smaller light vehicles. We need things though that a) keep a comfortable environment - heating/ac plus things like filtering out smoke. b) have enough passenger/cargo space. How much does he take his baby to things like doctor's appointments I wonder, or is it mom who does that?

Go to some of the smaller but populated areas in Alberta like Whitecourt and you really feel the bigger competition for safety. I drove my car in Whitecourt for a few days and if I moved there a vehicle purchase to something bigger would have happened way before it did here, plus would have been something bigger. I went higher but not really bigger. There were times I was the only car in a parking lot with a lot of trucks and some SUVs and it made backing out of a spot feel precarious. The highway around the area wasn't a great driving experience either.
 
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BetteTheRed

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The environment is a huge difference here, chemgal.

I have a number of friends/family who are Quebecois. They are competitive (sometimes bad - my sister's words) drivers, by nature.

BUT, they are also the most heavily gas-taxed province, and they have reacted, in true capitalist fashion, by preferring smaller/compact cars. I'm afraid that if you think competitiveness/dangerousness of driving has anything to do with the size/make of the vehicle, you are wrong.
 
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