Easter people or Christmas people?

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I completely agree with you about Christmas. Clearly an attempt to co-opt a very popular and convenient holiday in the 'natural' cycle - the "return of the Sun".

But, if you are taking the Easter holiday, as a non-realistic date, you've got something of a problem with a whole bunch of textual facts in the New Testament. The week of Jesus' death was clearly "around" the Passover celebration. And that's a moving holiday in the Jewish calendar, which is why it's the only moving holiday in the Christian calendar (not quite true; Pentecost Sunday is always 7 weeks later; other than those two, we have more or less weeks of "ordinary time" between fixed dates). We (Christians) could definitely have determined the actual date, but chose not to. It indicates a lasting link with Judaism which I personally rather like.
See, like, I don't care about any of that anymore. It was interesting the first time I heard historical perspectives on various Biblical events. Borg, Crossan, did a good job demystifying certain things to get people to understand the circumstances of the time. But we are in this time. We have s**t to do. It's a lot like that time - and it's also not. But so what? The point is to change. Jesus points out that time is timeless and the same s**t always happens and the only way to change it is to love one another. That's it. That's the whole message. And we need to break out of homeostasis to do that. The church is homeostatic. I'm tired of hearing the same stuff, the liturgy and "here's a bit of history about the culture of ancient Rome I bet you didn't know" - every weekend. And I probably heard it already and wasn't too fussed that I forgot - now is a good time to break out of that into something different. Jesus gave himself over to a violent death so that one day we'd figure it out and stop talking about - or being even distantly complicit in - violent death. I don't want to talk about him the way the church has been doing, anymore. He gave us the gift of timeless perspective on injustice and what to do to change the world. Maybe we should let it be. Stop rehashing it. We have stuff to do. Hallelujah!
 
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BetteTheRed

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Actually, kimmio, I wasn't talking to you, but to unsafe.

I quite understand your position. I honestly think Kairos, Amnesty (and I thought of a third - DWB/MSF - Doctors Without Borders/Medicins sans Frontieres - forgive French spelling) would be a good spiritual fit with your personality.

People like unsafe and PG-13. should they be able to shift left-ish, will do it gradually.
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ----Our Easter switches from March to April -----Jesus died on a certain day and Month and hour ----you can't switch Jesus date of death back and forth --just like when a person dies now they die on that date and month we don't switch dates and months of that persons death ------


Easter is a “movable feast” and does not have a fixed date; however, it is always held on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25.

How Is Easter Determined?

Easter falls on the first Sunday after the Full Moon date, based on mathematical calculations, that falls on or after March 21. If the Full Moon is on a Sunday, Easter is celebrated on the following Sunday.

Although Easter is liturgically related to the beginning of spring in the Northern Hemisphere (March equinox) and the Full Moon, its date is not based on the actual astronomical date of either event.

  • March 21 is the Church's date of the March equinox, regardless of the time zone, while the actual date of the equinox varies between March 19 and March 22, and the date depends on the time zone.

Earliest and Latest Easter Dates
According to the Metonic cycle, the Paschal Full Moon falls on a recurring sequence of 19 dates ranging from March 21 to April 18. Since Easter happens on the Sunday following the Paschal Full Moon, it can fall on any date between March 22 and April 25 (years 1753-2400).


When was Passover in AD 30?

People who ask this question are normally trying to calculate the exact date of Jesus’ death.

The New Testament states that Jesus died on a Friday at the beginning of the Jewish Passover, and that his resurrection took place on the following Sunday. However, it is not quite clear if Jesus’ death took place immediately before the start of the Jewish Passover or on the first day of Passover. Since Passover starts on 15 Nisan, it is unclear if Jesus died on 14 or 15 Nisan.

This question is important for Christian historians because if you know the date, you may with some degree of confidence also calculate the year; all you have to do is find a year near AD 30 where 14 or 15 Nisan fell on a Friday.

The problem is that we don’t know the exact details of the Hebrew calendar as it was used in the first century. This means that we have to allow for a margin of a day or two in the calculations, and this in turn means that we are left with quite a few possible dates.

. Currently, the most common theories suggest either 7 April AD 30 or 3 April AD 33.
 

BetteTheRed

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Currently, the most common theories suggest either 7 April AD 30 or 3 April AD 33.
Agreed, but you notice that Christianity as a whole, has agreed not to use one of those dates, but keep our holiest week of the year tied to the calendar of our Jewish mother religion. I don't ever think it's been a suggestion or a controversial issue in the church, universal.
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ------you said ------I don't ever think it's been a suggestion or a controversial issue in the church, universal.

I say ----No it isn't a Controversial issue in Churches ---so we agree here -----

What is controversial in my view and should bother True Christian Churches is these are Pagan Holidays that Christians adopted and decided by their own Sin Nature selves to Lump Jesus Christ who is God---Holy and Sinless in with the Pagan Festivals to celebrate His Birth and death ---

The Focus should be on the Why He was born and Why He died and we tend not to focus on that at these Festivals -----we go around the the real truth and talk more on the actual events not the Why ------that is my view on it ------

This scripture says it well for me -----

Colossians 2:8 CSB

Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ.


You say ----- notice that Christianity as a whole, has agreed not to use one of those dates,

I say -----These dates above are only theories anyway and as God never gave the dates of the Birth and Death Himself cause they are not the Focus ----the Focus God wanted is the Why --not the dates of the events ----

this is what I found on Google ------

Passover is a springtime Jewish festival celebrating the early Israelites' exodus from Egypt and freedom from slavery. ...

Easter is a springtime Christian holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ and freedom from sin and death. It is preceded by a series of holidays commemorating Jesus's path to the cross.
 

BetteTheRed

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What is controversial in my view and should bother True Christian Churches is these are Pagan Holidays that Christians adopted and decided by their own Sin Nature selves to Lump Jesus Christ who is God---Holy and Sinless in with the Pagan Festivals to celebrate His Birth and death -
I'm still the same "hold on a second". Christmas is totally Yule/Saturnalia/Return of the Sun festival, only slightly refurbished.

Easter, however, was not co-opted from any group. The commercial Easter has added the fertility egg/bunny routine, but the Christian Holy Week is tied very closely to the religion and even some of the themes of the Jewish Passover. As I said above-thread, I find it both endearing and comforting that my Jewish neighbours are always celebrating Passover during our Holy Week.
 
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I think one of the most interesting and memorable Easters - they coincided pretty close - was when my friend had a Passover Seder at her place - she grew up quite Orthodox, but is not anymore. She marks the Jewish occasions though. She invited people from all walks of life, and educated us on the tradition - with humour, and lots of wine. I don't remember if I did anything to celebrate Easter itself.
 
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A few of the Jewish people I've met are more Christian than the Christians. Mostly reform/ nominally observant - I don't know any Orthodox Jews - but in terms of core values, I found the people I met to be wise, hospitable, social justice oriented and unafraid to take the risk of taking a stand on issues. That's been my experience. My one friend was always risking her reputation to address injustice. She said it the way she felt it - no holds barred.
 
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BetteTheRed

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They coincide completely, every year, on Maundy Thursday. Passover can be celebrated over a few days, so this can work nicely. We have a Maundy Thursday tradition, which starts as a fairly short service, but ends with a foot or hand washing for every participant. Then we move into a Seder dinner, with an appropriate liturgy. It's very special, missed it so much this year;
 
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They coincide completely, every year, on Maundy Thursday. Passover can be celebrated over a few days, so this can work nicely. We have a Maundy Thursday tradition, which starts as a fairly short service, but ends with a foot or hand washing for every participant. Then we move into a Seder dinner, with an appropriate liturgy. It's very special, missed it so much this year;
Not always. They're usually close, if not coinciding completely.

 
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They coincide completely, every year, on Maundy Thursday. Passover can be celebrated over a few days, so this can work nicely. We have a Maundy Thursday tradition, which starts as a fairly short service, but ends with a foot or hand washing for every participant. Then we move into a Seder dinner, with an appropriate liturgy. It's very special, missed it so much this year;
My friend's house was special too - and fun. She went through all the motions - walked us through what the foods meant - then instead of lamb she brought out a ham. Not orthodox at all, she's just a really funny woman. She might've had a bite - but she cooked it for a laugh, and for us. She believes that pork being taboo is because of poor knowledge of curing and cooking to kill germs back then. Pork carries things that can cause brain infection. It makes sense since they thought pigs carried demons and seizures were a result of people being possessed by demons.

 
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And Passover seder can never fall on Maundy Thursday. It’s a jumble of different calendars and traditions that don’t fit neatly together.


The three calendars occasionally line up in strange ways. In 2018 and 2019, the first night of Passover fell on Good Friday. This won’t happen twice in a row again until 2113 and 2114, according to Dreyfus.

And as it happens, the first night of Passover can never fall on Maundy Thursday, even though that holiday commemorates a seder. That’s because Passover can never begin on Thursday, ever. “The calendar is rigged so that [seder] can fall only on certain days of the week,” Dreyfus told me. “If Passover started Thursday night, it would push Rosh Hashanah the following year to start on Saturday night.” And neither Rosh Hashanah nor Yom Kippur, the two High Holidays of the Jewish year, can fall the day after Shabbat.


Christians didn’t follow the Jewish Passover tradition since antiquity. If they had done so, they would’ve consulted the Jewish calendar. That said, Christians mark passover for every communion, too - since it also is about the meal before Good Friday. Symbolizing eating Jesus bones and drinking his blood. Lovely. I only participate because it’s a communal thing for Christians. But it’s rather weird and alienating for others.
 
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No matter how much we water it down, the blood and bones thing is still being symbolized. It’s creepy.

Celebrating the birth of a baby, honouring the child, and future children who will inherit and change the world, and do great things, is something more people can relate to.
 
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And Passover seder can never fall on Maundy Thursday. It’s a jumble of different calendars and traditions that don’t fit neatly together.


The three calendars occasionally line up in strange ways. In 2018 and 2019, the first night of Passover fell on Good Friday. This won’t happen twice in a row again until 2113 and 2114, according to Dreyfus.

And as it happens, the first night of Passover can never fall on Maundy Thursday, even though that holiday commemorates a seder. That’s because Passover can never begin on Thursday, ever. “The calendar is rigged so that [seder] can fall only on certain days of the week,” Dreyfus told me. “If Passover started Thursday night, it would push Rosh Hashanah the following year to start on Saturday night.” And neither Rosh Hashanah nor Yom Kippur, the two High Holidays of the Jewish year, can fall the day after Shabbat.


Christians didn’t follow the Jewish Passover tradition since antiquity. If they had done so, they would’ve consulted the Jewish calendar. That said, Christians mark passover for every communion, too - since it also is about the meal before Good Friday. Symbolizing eating Jesus bones and drinking his blood. Lovely. I only participate because it’s a communal thing for Christians. But it’s rather weird and alienating for others.
I take communion to be engaged with others, out of respect, solidarity. However, the premise is still creepy.
 

unsafe

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I say --------Taking part in communion for the wrong motive has very bad consequences-according to scripture Folks ---------
My view is Taking Communion is an honor ---not creepy at all ------for without what Jesus did we Humans would be all condemned forever ------

Posting here -
This word remembrance here from the scripture below in Greek means ------from Strong's Concordance

anamnésis: remembrance----- properly, deliberate recollection, done to better appreciate the effects (intended results) of what happened; -----
a remembering, recollection: εἰς τήν ἐμήν ἀνάμνησιν to call me (affectionately) to remembrance, 1 Corinthians 11:24f, ἐν in offering sacrifices there is a remembrance of sins, i. e. the memory of sins committed is revived by the sacrifices,


This is from

The Institution of the Lord's Supper
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Partaking of the Supper Unworthily
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.

29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

31
But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.


I say ------- This asleep here in this scripture from the greek means ----------

Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
metaphorically, and euphemistically equivalent to die 1 Corinthians 11:30;

I say

So let us all search our hearts when partaking in God Holy Communion ------just saying
 

Waterfall

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I say --------Taking part in communion for the wrong motive has very bad consequences-according to scripture Folks ---------
My view is Taking Communion is an honor ---not creepy at all ------for without what Jesus did we Humans would be all condemned forever ------

Posting here -
This word remembrance here from the scripture below in Greek means ------from Strong's Concordance

anamnésis: remembrance----- properly, deliberate recollection, done to better appreciate the effects (intended results) of what happened; -----
a remembering, recollection: εἰς τήν ἐμήν ἀνάμνησιν to call me (affectionately) to remembrance, 1 Corinthians 11:24f, ἐν in offering sacrifices there is a remembrance of sins, i. e. the memory of sins committed is revived by the sacrifices,


This is from

The Institution of the Lord's Supper
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Partaking of the Supper Unworthily
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.

29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

30
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

31
But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.


I say ------- This asleep here in this scripture from the greek means ----------

Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
metaphorically, and euphemistically equivalent to die 1 Corinthians 11:30;

I say

So let us all search our hearts when partaking in God Holy Communion ------just saying
I am in the process of examining.
 
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Another perspective....for what it's worth:

If Jesus' death was an offering to sin and the devil in order to fulfill the law that demands sacrifice, and God doesn't like blood sacrifice and never did...why do we go over it again and again?

In my heart I know Jesus teachings while he was alive are right but I think it's time for me to leave the rest of the confusion behind. I mean - why do we pour over, and over, and over...every detail of an ancient book all the time when the problems and the solutions are right in front of us? Love others. God is wherever that happens because God is love. God - the one we ought to be honouring - and love are synonymous. There's no need to be cultish about it. It's very simple. We all learned to share as kids.
 
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Church is going to reconvene in the building at some point - the focus is going to be on children's spiritual formation since there are so many kids there. Our pastor is going to be different. She's my friend and she baptized me. The pastor who is leaving is a nice guy, interesting person. I just don't know if I want to go back. Not if its going to be liturgical. I like my home group though. They're my friends. Beyond socializing I would also like to be of service in the world.

It's sad that because of covid not everyone will be welcome in church. To me, that marks the end of the whole point of going.
But i also think there are other good things, that God is doing, on the horizon.
 
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