Easter people or Christmas people?

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They're not necessarily misused when connected with Revelation and interpreted a little too literally - which is what's happened in large parts of Christianity. They are suggesting violence is God's means to our ends in this world - that's how they take it, so many welcome it (done unto others they don't like). Whereas Christmas does not suggest anything violent inherent in being good to people regardless of their religion, and, together with a newly born Jesus, ushering in peace.
 

BetteTheRed

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Yet, Jesus overturned tables in the temple. This is not an act of "non-violence". He may have preferred property violence over human-human violence, but it's not non-violent. Speaks to some of the best of the current civil unrest - hurt things, not people.
 

Mendalla

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Whereas Christmas does not suggest anything violent inherent in being good to people regardless of their religion, and, together with a newly born Jesus, ushering in peace.
I'll just leave this here. Yes, people often stop shy of it or skim over it, but it is technically part of the Christmas story.

Matthew 2:16-18 said:
16 When Herod saw that he had been tricked by the wise men,[i] he was infuriated, and he sent and killed all the children in and around Bethlehem who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had learned from the wise men.[j] 17 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
wailing and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they are no more.”
Meanwhile, the ever-loving, ever-good God made sure his Son made it to safety.
 

KayTheCurler

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I am dealing with it...by suggesting a refocusing of priorities. I’ve heard plenty of people not sure how to wrestle with the violence of the crucifixion. Plenty have left church because of that. Why not make it less of a priority and the essence of Christmas more of a priority? Instead of dealing with it by whitewashing Easter, deal with it by focusing on Christmas more?
Then you will finish up with a warm fuzzy Christianity. We have some local churches that never mention the lead up to the resurrection (because, as one minister told me, people don't like to hear about Jesus being hurt).
 
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Goodwill includes peace and social justice for the marginalized. Other than that, nothing wrong with being nice and warm.
 
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Yet, Jesus overturned tables in the temple. This is not an act of "non-violence". He may have preferred property violence over human-human violence, but it's not non-violent. Speaks to some of the best of the current civil unrest - hurt things, not people.
It was not people violence and pretty tame compared to what was done to him (which is a more detailed and gory picture) and to what was going on in the day. He didn't break the 10 commandments by doing it. That's clarified.

Also, I'm not suggesting that at the time of Jesus birth things were not wrong with the world. Only that his birth was to usher in peace. He needed to be born to exist, in reality and/ or in the heart. Ritual telling of the Friday before Easter, and the Thursday before the Friday - mixed with Revelation as parts of the church have done - while supporting wars, executions and torture (or supporting the people in charge who favour of those things) has perpetuated violence.


Regardless of beliefs in the afterlife, there is a lot of work to do here on Earth. Perpetual Christmas Spirit rather than perpetual crucifixion and resurrection is a different focus. The institutional church has put its own spin on things a number of times. I doubt it would be recognizable to Jesus the way it has been.

Seeing as a large number of non-Christians not only celebrate Christmas but recognize it as a conciliatory and generous time...Jesus reaches more people in common that way. Even if they don't recognize the birth of Jesus at Christmas, plenty of people embrace the Christmas Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about shopping mall Santa, but about the idea that people of all walks of life take time out and to happily make an effort to do nice things for other people. Christianity can find connection with non-Christianity that way if they wanted to. It's already there. Not too many non-Christians connect with Christians by way of Easter these days. We have work to do on Earth. I think it's more in the Christmas spirit that more people could come together and do that because they feel like it. What if they felt like it everyday, with the same attitude? The story of Easter ( the events of Easter weekend) is alienating to many non-Christians, and even to several Christians. The United Church has a more open view of it than other churches, but people who don't know the difference between church theologies because they've never delved into any - don't know there are differences. There are two major branches of Christianity many take issue with, and they know little about the rest. Most people understand that Christmas is a time of goodwill though. That's positive. Why not work with that? I'm not sure it even matters if we get church theology wrong - because we've filled in a lot of blanks over millennia and shaped outcomes already, in a lot of unhelpful ways. We could shape outcomes in helpful ways - as long as we get the essence of it.
 
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Not to work with get bums in pews! To bring people of goodwill together. With COVID everybody has to rethink how we do everything already. And I used the word conciliatory in a post above. It could be reconciliatory.

Christmas is coming. It might be quite different this year. Transformative, even.Why not start it early?
 
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BetteTheRed

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Oh, God, no. I hate Christmas. The thought of starting it even earlier makes me actively nauseous.

I consider the entire Christmas season a patriarchal plot to render women exhausted, guilty and impoverished. Not a great message, in my view.
 
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Oh, God, no. I hate Christmas. The thought of starting it even earlier makes me actively nauseous.

I consider the entire Christmas season a patriarchal plot to render women exhausted, guilty and impoverished. Not a great message, in my view.
Not all the formal rigmarole. A more easy going version.
 

BetteTheRed

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So, what I'm identifying here, Kimmio, is a flaw in your "Christmas People" thing. I bore one of my babes on December 16th. I consider Christmas to be the most horribly crazy time of the year. Mary would so not have wanted to celebrate this.
 
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So, what I'm identifying here, Kimmio, is a flaw in your "Christmas People" thing. I bore one of my babes on December 16th. I consider Christmas to be the most horribly crazy time of the year. Mary would so not have wanted to celebrate this.
I mean have the giving-goodwill ethos of Christmas all year. Have the Chistmas spirit with us all year. Keep it in mind all year. One reason is it's accessible to and enjoyed by non-Christians and conducive to peace and working together. Easter is not that accessible to all. You're either in with the in crowd who gets it or you aren't. I am thinking about a more inclusive ethos for the world that is Christ centred. Christmas is that occasion even though people don't all celebrate Jesus birthday. The feeling is in the air and understood by many. And it should be, all year.

I remember a minister saying "Go where God is already working." and the fact that there's almost always an intercultural uptick in kindness and generosity not dependent on theology, because of Christmas, is a good place to start.
 
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BetteTheRed

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But....the sanitized Easter, of eggs and bunnies, and spring, is much nicer than "give until you're bled dry" ethos of Christmas. I am grumpy around the shortest day of the year. I can dig making a tourtiere and some cinnamon buns from scratch and drinking some really smoked tea or a deeply spiced rum as "f*** this, it's evil/long dark" comfort food. What I have NO wish to do on or about the shortest day of the year is to over-work myself with excessive food, stupid outfits, too many presents, too many obligations, and friggin snow or slush on top of it.
 
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Well, the whitewashed tombs are empty right now. He said come to him like little children (with the wonderment and joy of Christmas). It's not clear if church will ever be the same and if attendance will remain down. The churches are not doing as much needed outreach due to covid, they're not at the forefront of any social justice the public knows enough about to hear about and join in. They're not going to have room at the inn for stragglers and lost souls anymore with social distancing. Everyone will not be welcome. They'll probably have to have attendance caps which will be ok for small congregations but it won't be ok for bigger ones. Computer services don't cut it and they won't likely pay for the empty building rentals.

This has come up before but maybe I, as a Christian, should join more secular efforts already going on (they are God's people too and if the values don't conflict with Jesus core message they're fine and I wouldn't be the only heretical Christian in the world joining/ serving secular efforts ) to make changes in the world. And carry the Christmas spirit while doing it.
 
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But....the sanitized Easter, of eggs and bunnies, and spring, is much nicer than "give until you're bled dry" ethos of Christmas. I am grumpy around the shortest day of the year. I can dig making a tourtiere and some cinnamon buns from scratch and drinking some really smoked tea or a deeply spiced rum as "f*** this, it's evil/long dark" comfort food. What I have NO wish to do on or about the shortest day of the year is to over-work myself with excessive food, stupid outfits, too many presents, too many obligations, and friggin snow or slush on top of it.
What I'm saying is it's Christmas today. Tomorrow it will also be Christmas. A new child was born today who is to usher in peace. A new child was born somewhere everyday who will do great things. Why can't we honour that everyday? Maybe that child is a new baby or a reborn adult. The time is coming and is now (in meta-narrative terms). Rejoice, be good to one another. It's a timeless thing just like Easter. That's what I'm saying.
 
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BetteTheRed

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Well, the whitewashed tombs are empty right now. He said come to him like little children (with the wonderment and joy of Christmas). It's not clear if church will ever be the same and if attendance will remain down. The churches are not doing as much needed outreach due to covid, they're not at the forefront of any social justice. This has come up before but maybe I, as a Christian, should join more secular efforts already going on (they are God's people too and if the values don't conflict with Jesus core message they're fine) to make changes in the world. And carry the Christmas spirit while doing it.
Here's two hugely important groups you could join/work for: KAIROS, and Amnesty International. If I wasn't as sure of the good effects of my own congregation on its immediate world, I would withdraw from "official" church and work for one or both of those.
 

unsafe

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From OP -------Easter people or Christmas people?

my view
Neither for me -----I am a God Person all Year Round ------Human Man Made Religion has made Easter People and Christmas People -----

Jesus never ---ever said to remember My Birth and celebrate it ---Jesus never --ever Said Remember my Death and celebrate it -----no where does it say anything about celebrating a holiday called Christmas or Easter -----Jesus was not Born on Dec 25 and Jesus didn't die in the month we celebrate Easter --- these are both pagan holidays that were adopted by mankind and brought into man made Christian Religions ----- We are to remember the body of Christ that was broken for us-- in the broken bread we take ---Jesus is our bread of life ---we are to remember that the New Covenant That Jesus came to deliver was forgiving all sin which needed sacrificial Shedding of Blood poured out to cover all sin for all time for all people ---and the wine represents this ------that is it ---

Luke 22:19-20 (NIV)
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]


I say
Jesus had to be Born to serve His Father's Will to be the one who would bring us back to God by and through His sacrificing Himself --God the Father made a Promise to the Jewish Nation and this chosen Nation Rejected His Son their only hope of reconciliation back to God ------God Loves His Jewish Nation so much and gives them another chance to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior ------ Revelations is all about saving People and keeping His Promise to His Jewish Nation -----If we think this virus is bad -----what God has planned to rid His Planet of Sin is hundreds of times worse than you can imagine -----The Book of Revelation is a book of God's wrath to rid His Planet of Sin and God's Love to give many chances for people to come to Him so they can be involved in the New Earth -------


It is not anything about Christmas and Easter ---it is all about what Jesus Brought to Mankind to fix what we Humans broke -----our bridge back to God and personal Relationship with Him ------

The Book of Revelation in my view should be taught in every Church and it is avoided like the plague -----it is an eye opener for showing God's Mercy --Grace and Love to eradicate sin in His world and restore peace and harmony again in the New Earth -----
 

Mendalla

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It is not anything about Christmas and Easter ---it is all about what Jesus Brought to Mankind to fix what we Humans broke -----our bridge back to God and personal Relationship with Him
But do festivals like Christmas and Easter, done properly, not help teach us about Jesus and the relationship he came to create between humans and God?
 

BetteTheRed

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Jesus didn't die in the month we celebrate Easter
I completely agree with you about Christmas. Clearly an attempt to co-opt a very popular and convenient holiday in the 'natural' cycle - the "return of the Sun".

But, if you are taking the Easter holiday, as a non-realistic date, you've got something of a problem with a whole bunch of textual facts in the New Testament. The week of Jesus' death was clearly "around" the Passover celebration. And that's a moving holiday in the Jewish calendar, which is why it's the only moving holiday in the Christian calendar (not quite true; Pentecost Sunday is always 7 weeks later; other than those two, we have more or less weeks of "ordinary time" between fixed dates). We (Christians) could definitely have determined the actual date, but chose not to. It indicates a lasting link with Judaism which I personally rather like.
 

unsafe

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Mendalla ---you said -----But do festivals like Christmas and Easter, done properly, not help teach us about Jesus and the relationship he came to create between humans and God?


Well my view is Christian Man Made Religion uses Christmas and Easter to draw people into their Church once a year ----You Don't need a Festival to Properly teach anyone about Jesus and why He was born and why he died ------What you need is the Bible itself ------teaching that Christ was born on Dec 25 and died on a date and Month that changes every year is to me misleading and promotes deception --in itself -----The Meat of why Jesus was born is not brought up it is all about advent and lighting candles and skimming over Mary experience of having Jesus and the wise men that come to bring gifts to the Messiah -
----Jesus was born to do His Father's will which was to bring back the Blessing to the Jewish Nation by keeping the laws which no man could keep and which brought in the Curse of the law --that should be the focus -----it is more about Mary -Joseph and the wise men in amy Service I have attended --------

And the same goes for the death of Jesus -----The meat of the meaning of His Death is not the focus ---it is more about the cross and who was at the tomb and the empty tomb ----The Bible gives you the meat of why jesus died which is not a pretty death as Blood is involved and is necessary to accomplish why Jesus died ----the focus is not about the necessary shedding of Blood to cover our sins which is the only way for humans to have eternal life which is what the resurrection is all about -life after death ---- ---all according to scripture ------


So for me the festivals of Christmas and Easter just skim over Jesus that is the focus ------which is not the real meat of why Jesus was born and why He died -----
 
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